Grip size and poi.

[stillquietvoice]

I went to the range Sunday, spent 5 hours with several different firearms including my Smith 5904. I fired 75 rounds through my pistol, 15 offhand and 60 with my arms resting on the bench at 10 yds. All shots were constantly impacting low and left. I k kw the usual culprit of low left is flinch or blink, but I saw the powder cloud after each shot.

My question is, can a grip that is too small cause the same lmpact point as a flinch? I am way out of practice, but never had this issue with any of my other semi auto pistols, para ordnance p 14-45, Taurus pt99, or browning Buck Mark. Even the star 380 wich was really small in the grip, used to bite the web of my hand.

My trigger finger meets the trigger just past the first knuckle.

 

[Rex in OTZ]

You could experiment with some sport tape, fatten it up further at the top, thats my main complaint with stock rubber grips on my taurus 941 .22 mag.
The darn grips are insanely too skinny.
I have a old wood grip High Standard the grips have a hand filling thumb swells at the top.
That make it a great joy to shoot.

 

[9mmepiphany]

All shots were constantly impacting low and left

How small that constant group is will tell you if it is the gun or your technique. At 10 yards, off a bench, I'd expect a group right around 1" if you were doing your part.

I'll also add that I have never heard of the grip of the S&W 5904/459/59 described as too small...usually it's been referred to as too large

 

[ms6852]

Since you stated you are way out of practice, are you familiar with a "shooting wheel" gives you why you are shooting low and left.

 

[9mmepiphany]

are you familiar with a "shooting wheel" gives you why you are shooting low and left

I'm never understood why people keep posting this graphic unless they know that the shooter is shooting one-handed.

That "Training Wheel" was originally designed to diagnose bullseye shooter's errors who were shooting one handed. It's application to shooters who are using two hands to grip their pistol is extremely limited at best...the force vectors are very different

 

[FlippinHippie]

In my experience, yes. Tiny grips kind of roll a bit in my hand. Less so with a two hand grip. Even less so with some kind of oversized grip.

 

[buck460XVR]

Fixed sights? Maybe the POI is just left and low of POA.

 

[Bacon buster]

IMO if your trigger finger is past the first knuckle that’s too deep and can cause said issue and also you can try adjusting your grip a little so the spine of the grip hits the the center of the meat of your thumb. Over gripping will cause that as well. Shorting up your grip a little will also allow a better purchase with the support hand as it will expose a much larger surface on the grip panel for the meat on your other thumb

 

[Bacon buster]

If that doesn’t make sense let me know and I’ll post some pics

 

[ms6852]

I'm never understood why people keep posting this graphic unless they know that the shooter is shooting one-handed.

That "Training Wheel" was originally designed to diagnose bullseye shooter's errors who were shooting one handed. It's application to shooters who are using two hands to grip their pistol is extremely limited at best...the force vectors are very different

Because whether you realize it or not it applies to him as well. He stated that that he shot supported and unsupported and used the word arms. Even if it is not one handed the fact remains there is only the dominant hand in control of the firearm that holds and squeezes the trigger. I am trying to cover all possibilities and variables here or it could be sight picture we don't know. What I do no is that my respond rubs you the wrong way.

 

[stillquietvoice]

IMO if your trigger finger is past the first knuckle that’s too deep and can cause said issue and also you can try adjusting your grip a little so the spine of the grip hits the the center of the meat of your thumb. Over gripping will cause that as well. Shorting up your grip a little will also allow a better purchase with the support hand as it will expose a much larger surface on the grip panel for the meat on your other thumb

I think i know short grip had to keep my pinky down below the magwell on my star 380. That was the o KY way I could shoot it without slide bite.

Fixed sights? Maybe the POI is just left and low of POA.

Year sight is dovetailed, so drift adjustable, front is as well.

Not that it should matter I was shooting reloads, 125 lrn over 6.0 gr hs-6 at 1.12" in single action, not double.

How small that constant group is will tell you if it is the gun or your technique. At 10 yards, off a bench, I'd expect a group right around 1" if you were doing your part.

Group size was a bit over 1", had several in one hole, but not all. I used to shoot bullsey, but that was almost 30 years ago, and could shoot with 1 gun in each hand, but then I was shooting a thousand rounds a week. An injury, subsequent bills, caused a subsequent reduction in my ability, and most of my firearms.
I've had this pistol about 2 years and have only about 1000 rounds through it.

 

[memtb]

Since you stated you are way out of practice, are you familiar with a "shooting wheel" gives you why you are shooting low and left.View attachment 987094

^^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^

Very good info......and extremely important with smaller handguns with heavy, long trigger pulls. I just recently, experienced difficulties getting a new toy to print anywhere close to my target. When I studied and corrected my trigger pull position/technique......the groups “mysteriously” began printing on target! memtb

 

[memtb]

I'm never understood why people keep posting this graphic unless they know that the shooter is shooting one-handed.

That "Training Wheel" was originally designed to diagnose bullseye shooter's errors who were shooting one handed. It's application to shooters who are using two hands to grip their pistol is extremely limited at best...the force vectors are very different

I was having issues with shot placement, and was not, nor ever hope to be shooting one handed! Remembering this “wheel”, and addressing my technique immediately fixed my “two-handed” shooting issue! It is still relevant to two handed shooting......more-so, with a very small handgun, with a moderately heavy, long trigger pull! memtb

 

[Cliff6]

Ok, not familiar with the term. What is "thumbing"?

 

[jdh]

If I may make a suggestion. Before you go making changes to the pistol let someone else shoot it. Don't say anything about sights. Just let them shoot it and see where they get hits. If it is the same results as you then you know it is the sights. If not it may be you.

 

[jak67429]

for a right handed shooter, if you put too much pressure with your thumb it will cause the shot to break right.

 

[Bacon buster]

Check grip. Fingers wrapped around the front strap too far and spine of the grip not in the center of the meat of your thumb. Trigger finger too deep. Both of those cause left pulls for right handed shooters even with a great trigger pull the natural motion of squeezing will pull the muzzle slightly low n left

 

[Rex in OTZ]

I'll chime in with my 10 cents.

Er, I mean the Dime Drill.



https://fire-field.com/2019/07/16/mastering-trigger-control-with-the-dime-drill/

 

[memtb]

I'll chime in with my 10 cents.

Er, I mean the Dime Drill.



https://fire-field.com/2019/07/16/mastering-trigger-control-with-the-dime-drill/

Now I know why that drill always “kicked my butt”! I was trying to stand the dime on it’s edge! memtb

 

[ms6852]

We used the dime drill in the military all the time with the M-16 and our 1911's. It really works.

 

[stillquietvoice]

If I may make a suggestion. Before you go making changes to the pistol let someone else shoot it. Don't say anything about sights. Just let them shoot it and see where they get hits. If it is the same results as you then you know it is the sights. If not it may be you.

I had that thought as well.

I'll chime in with my 10 cents.

Er, I mean the Dime Drill.



https://fire-field.com/2019/07/16/mastering-trigger-control-with-the-dime-drill/

Very informative I'll have to try that out. Put a little more challenge into dry fire.

Now I know why that drill always “kicked my butt”! I was trying to stand the dime on it’s edge! memtb

That's funny almost made me spit coffee acrossed my table.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Because whether you realize it or not it applies to him as well. He stated that that he shot supported and unsupported and used the word arms. Even if it is not one handed the fact remains there is only the dominant hand in control of the firearm that holds and squeezes the trigger.

The force vectors applied by the support hand, to both the gun and the shooting hand, causes a difference in bullet strike from that on the chart you posted. That is why I asked the initial questions that I did.

If he is shooting consistent 1" groups, as he has stated that he does, he isn't jerking/slapping the trigger...especially with the other listed factors he posted. More than likely, he is over gripping the gun 1) with the fingertips of his strong hand and/or 2) tightening his grip as he presses the trigger

I am trying to cover all possibilities and variables here or it could be sight picture we don't know. What I do no is that my respond rubs you the wrong way.

It wasn't your response, per se. What we try to present here is valid and proven information so that readers will not be lead down the wrong path

What is irritating is that the previously discredited chart keeps being brought up and presented as valid/current information. I've even seen this brought up by instructors who were taught with it and never took the time to understand what they were teaching. It is almost as bad as folks still teaching the cup-n-saucer grip to new shooters...because it was what they were taught.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Now I know why that drill always “kicked my butt”! I was trying to stand the dime on it’s edge!

That's funny almost made me spit coffee acrossed my table.

You mean like this

 

[film495]

just dry fire and watch the end of your barrel. I'll bet you a dollar the end of the barrel lunges as you follow through. my experience, for what it is worth - with pretty big hands, smaller grip is harder. after a while - I've developed a feel for what straight back feels like, and I can tell if I'm pulling shots to the left before I even pull the target back to check it.

 

[ms6852]

What is irritating is that the previously discredited chart keeps being brought up and presented as valid/current information. I've even seen this brought up by instructors who were taught with it and never took the time to understand what they were teaching. It is almost as bad as folks still teaching the cup-n-saucer grip to new shooters...because it was what they were taught.[/QUOTE]

I understand