Corpral_Agarn
Member
Yep.
I have tiny, little baby hands LOL
If I have to choose between a smaller grip and a bigger grip, it's the bigger one every time.
Grip Strength
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I have tiny, little baby hands LOL
If I have to choose between a smaller grip and a bigger grip, it's the bigger one every time.
LiveLife
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Very good point.
When someone has recoil management issue, I work with them until they can consciously feel when the grip work is fully transferred to their shoulders with their shooting forearm/elbow "push" solidly locked in isometric opposing force with support forearm/elbow "pull" (doesn't matter partial extension or full extension).
Once this takes place, recoil impulse now travels to their shoulders past solidly locked wrists and they feel the recoil not at the wrists but down the forearms/elbows to shoulders. When they understand this, I have them lean forward just a bit to compensate and recoil management is much improved.
Once you get someone to the point of being able to see their sights in recoil - mainly a function of not blinking at ignition and then bringing up visual processing speed a little - they can test all these ideas and advice for themselves. They can literally see what a little more left hand grip or some level of push-pull or engaging your toe muscles or whatever does (or doesn't do). They can then confirm with a timer to make sure they're not just fooling themselves.
I've never gotten much out of putting any kind of attention on the "big" muscles. I've tried all kinds of variations and never found it to do much for me. Maybe I never don't have those muscles engaged.
Talk to a bunch of different good (or even world-class) golfers and they'll describe all sorts of different subjective experiences during the swing and very different approaches... even on aspects of the swing that are pretty similar. For some people, they have to intentionally "fire" their hands to get the clubhead to square... for some people, they have to focus on keeping the hands completely passive to allow the clubhead to square. In some of those cases, their hands and muscles are doing precisely the same thing... it's just that people have a different "default" in terms of what certain muscles want to do given external stimuli.
Shooting a pistol is a much simpler and easier biomechanical process, so there's a lot less variation, but I think the same phenomenon exists. For instance, a lot of people who struggle with so-called "limp wristing" don't actually have limp wrists... they allow their elbows to flex. A lot of other people have never had to give even a fleeting thought to keeping their elbows in a fixed degree of bend during recoil... they just naturally resist any flexing impulse coming from the recoil.
I've never gotten much out of putting any kind of attention on the "big" muscles. I've tried all kinds of variations and never found it to do much for me. Maybe I never don't have those muscles engaged.
Talk to a bunch of different good (or even world-class) golfers and they'll describe all sorts of different subjective experiences during the swing and very different approaches... even on aspects of the swing that are pretty similar. For some people, they have to intentionally "fire" their hands to get the clubhead to square... for some people, they have to focus on keeping the hands completely passive to allow the clubhead to square. In some of those cases, their hands and muscles are doing precisely the same thing... it's just that people have a different "default" in terms of what certain muscles want to do given external stimuli.
Shooting a pistol is a much simpler and easier biomechanical process, so there's a lot less variation, but I think the same phenomenon exists. For instance, a lot of people who struggle with so-called "limp wristing" don't actually have limp wrists... they allow their elbows to flex. A lot of other people have never had to give even a fleeting thought to keeping their elbows in a fixed degree of bend during recoil... they just naturally resist any flexing impulse coming from the recoil.
LiveLife
Member
Very good point.
I think many people, even seasoned shooters, often hold notions that may not be true ... until shown/proven otherwise.
Or they're subconsciously/unconsciously doing the right thing on this or that point. Most people don't have to be told to not let their elbows flex in response to recoil. Most people instinctively do the right thing on that narrow issue... the subject literally never comes up as a conscious thought for them, nor does it need to be raised. But some people have the wrong "natural" instinct, and let their forearms pivot upward in recoil. Maybe they think it will "cushion" the force of the recoil (and they're right!). Maybe that's how they simulated recoil when they played war in the front yard as a kid. Doesn't matter. It causes problems, and they'll need to intentionally not do/allow that... until it becomes "natural" for them to maintain a fixed level of elbow bend during recoil.
loneviking
Member
I agree with this video. I work with a Captains of Crush and do forearm dumbbell curls.
I’ve seen quite a few shooters fire a round, adjust hand, another round, wiggle and adjust—for every round. I had an idea it was either grip strength or the grip is too big for their hands.
On the other hand, you can’t grip so hard you get the shakes. A firm grip with two strong hands seems to be the best way.
bdickens
Member
Got nothing to do with recoil control and everything to do with when you think you're about to die all this 60/40, push-pull, X lb. of pressure stuff is probably gonna go right out the window.
Yeah, I know you think you're different. But don't argue with me about it. Argue with the people who study this stuff. Scientifically. And who know way more about it than you or I ever will.
[Edit to add: I meant to address the generic "you" and not necessarily the specific gentlemen I quoted]
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LiveLife
Member
I concur and why I now primarily focus on defensive point shooting for most people as I tell them it's the initial fast draw to bang and follow up bangs that will matter if your life is on the line as well illustrated in recent Texas church shooting (If you have a definite threat who is about to shoot you, you need to be quick and need to practice to be quick every time you shoot). Remember? We fight like we train.
While we may lack the discipline and the balls to go for precisely aimed headshot like the Texas church shooting, fast shots to COM we can practice and drill on every range trip and I refer people to study this Jerry Miculek's video as discussed in detail in this thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-2#post-11245640
Zaydok Allen
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Grip firmly with your strong hand and then squeeze your support hand tighter.
Death grips ruin shots. I don’t even death grip my 460 magnum. I just let my shoulders roll a bit with it.
Death grips ruin shots. I don’t even death grip my 460 magnum. I just let my shoulders roll a bit with it.
I don't really know what I'm talking about (which was the reason for the OP) but to me it seems if you put the last 10,000.rounds down range using a certain technique you would be more likely to default to that rather than something totally foreign.
What a bizarre line of thinking. Because people under duress aren't consciously thinking about technique, we should spend no time practicing technique?
Most people (including people who have been in gunfights) think that the lack of conscious attention to technique in a real gunfight is why you work on this stuff until it’s automatic. And why you practice putting yourself in situations where the complexity of the task at hand and the pressure make it difficult to focus on fundamentals. The idea is to reach a level where [thing you're trying to do] is unconsciously done.
I'm not sure I've ever met someone who seriously disagrees with this basic notion. Until now?
Zaydok Allen
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Hmmmm…. Yeah I guess I struggle with this a bit too. The point of practicing technique is to train your body and mind to do what it needs to automatically when the actual need arises.
I agree that when you are afraid for your life a lot of the thought goes out the window, but the way we train is often indicative of how we will perform under pressure. If we practice good technique, we will likely use good technique when defending our lives. The opposite is true also.
Point shooting is just another technique, and there is a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. But that's more related to sight usage than grip technique. A proper grip is a proper grip and is only one aspect of a shooting style. Use the style that you feel affords you the most advantage over an adversary.
Two exercises to strengthen grip and increase control:
1. Squeeze a rubber ball, to increase your grip strength. This is a very portable workout tool.Take it almost anywhere.
2. Wrist and lower arm strength-
Get a section of mop or shovel handle about 18 inches long. At the nine inch mark, drill a hole large enough to pass your 36" string through. Tie one end to the hole in the handle, tie the other end to a weight. With your arms extended, rotate the handle, so the string wraps around the handle, lifting the weight. Reverse the rotation, till the weight is all the way down, then wraps all the way back up, again. Start with lighter weights, then go with gradually heavier weights.
Alternate holding the ends of the handle as you lift the weight, to also holding close to the middle.
Also exercise with your arms fully extended, then closer in to your body.
Burn calories and control recoil. Win-win...
1. Squeeze a rubber ball, to increase your grip strength. This is a very portable workout tool.Take it almost anywhere.
2. Wrist and lower arm strength-
Get a section of mop or shovel handle about 18 inches long. At the nine inch mark, drill a hole large enough to pass your 36" string through. Tie one end to the hole in the handle, tie the other end to a weight. With your arms extended, rotate the handle, so the string wraps around the handle, lifting the weight. Reverse the rotation, till the weight is all the way down, then wraps all the way back up, again. Start with lighter weights, then go with gradually heavier weights.
Alternate holding the ends of the handle as you lift the weight, to also holding close to the middle.
Also exercise with your arms fully extended, then closer in to your body.
Burn calories and control recoil. Win-win...
Another good exercise that is useful to building the strength to "lock your wrists" is standing holding a baseball bat upside down (with the knob of the bat against the top of your thumb and side of your index finger) in one hand, like you're going to use it as a ski pole. Hold your arm straight down by your side - the barrel of the bat will extend behind you (be careful if you're doing this indoors!), and your palm should be facing your thigh. Grasping the bat firmly, cock and uncock your wrists (technically radial and ulnar deviation) so that the bat moves in a vertical arc behind you. Don't move your arms; make the muscles along the bottom of your forearms do all the work.
If you flip the bat around, you can do the same exercise in the front and get the top of the forearm, and keep muscle development balanced. If you have two bats, you can do both arms at once.
If you flip the bat around, you can do the same exercise in the front and get the top of the forearm, and keep muscle development balanced. If you have two bats, you can do both arms at once.
bdickens
Member
You are totally misunderstanding me.
Nowhere, nohow was I ever suggesting that one should not train on proper techniques.
What I am saying is that bullseye target shooting techniques conducive to achieving maximum accuracy are not conducive to the extreme high stress of a lethal encounter.
I never really thought about it but my wrists never seem to get sore anymore no matter how big a boomer or how many hundreds of rounds I go through. If I overdo it at the range my shoulders will start to get a dull ache and I know it's time to call it a day. Hopefully that means I'm doing at least something right.
tipoc
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My .22 cents.
Grip strength: Should be firm and tight enough to control the gun in recoil without the gun slipping in the hand. It should be as consistent as possible from the beginning to the end of the shot. The trigger finger should be able to do it's work without the rest of the hand moving and altering the grip. The grip should not be so tight that the hand shakes or that the hand or fingers cramp after a short while.
Hand gun stocks: Interchangeable stocks (as we S&W aficionados call them, grips other folks say) are a great help to a grip on a gun. They can help or hurt.
In the pic below the set of Houge Grips have a palm swell. In this case, in my hands, the location of the palm swell places the trigger finger in such a way that it helps with a straight to the rear trigger pull. However it also lowers the position of the hand on the back strap which harms recoil control as you can see in the second pic.
The pic below shows a better location of the hand on the back strap for better recoil control. However it also undoes any benefit of the palm swell and places that bump where it may not help at all.
This is the same effect that finger grooves on a grips can produce if they are not in the correct place for a persons hands. No matter how correct the physical grip on the gun may be, the stocks/grips can undo the beneficial effects of a proper grip no matter how strong or weak. They can also lead a person to focus on the wrong thing.
Sometimes the grip is at fault. But often it's the grip on the grip that's the issue.
Grip strength: Should be firm and tight enough to control the gun in recoil without the gun slipping in the hand. It should be as consistent as possible from the beginning to the end of the shot. The trigger finger should be able to do it's work without the rest of the hand moving and altering the grip. The grip should not be so tight that the hand shakes or that the hand or fingers cramp after a short while.
Hand gun stocks: Interchangeable stocks (as we S&W aficionados call them, grips other folks say) are a great help to a grip on a gun. They can help or hurt.
In the pic below the set of Houge Grips have a palm swell. In this case, in my hands, the location of the palm swell places the trigger finger in such a way that it helps with a straight to the rear trigger pull. However it also lowers the position of the hand on the back strap which harms recoil control as you can see in the second pic.
The pic below shows a better location of the hand on the back strap for better recoil control. However it also undoes any benefit of the palm swell and places that bump where it may not help at all.
This is the same effect that finger grooves on a grips can produce if they are not in the correct place for a persons hands. No matter how correct the physical grip on the gun may be, the stocks/grips can undo the beneficial effects of a proper grip no matter how strong or weak. They can also lead a person to focus on the wrong thing.
Sometimes the grip is at fault. But often it's the grip on the grip that's the issue.
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not if you "push" your thumb forward and use that palm swell as a backstop for the gun recoil. just don't put side pressure on the gun with that thumb. that makes a really neat platform for the resistance needed for that ten pound double-action trigger pull.
luck,
murf
correct and consistent grip is more important than trigger pull, imo. those two are always in a race to see which is more important.
luck,
murf
just a couple thoughts on this that didn't seem mentioned in this thread, I'm certainly no expert though
your small finger is stronger than your larger fingers. when I worked in industry and they would train us to carry pails and such correctly, focusing on the strength in your pinky and ring finger to grip with, is far more capable and stronger than your larger two fingers. try carrying a 5 gallon bucket filled with water and it is much easier to do when really activating the smaller 2 fingers. If you've played much baseball, you'll pretty quickly start to swing the bat squeezing hardest with your pinky fingers, and the pointing fingers are used more to aim or guide the bat.
this can be applied to grip on a firearm as well. one thing I kind of notice, is that if I really make a point on a good 2 hand grip, and get as much contact as possible with my left hand. there is a point where I'm adjusting my grip where I can freely move my trigger finger rapidly and tap it as fast as possible between the trigger and the trigger guard, and not have the firearm move at all. For me, this is really kind of where I'm starting to experience what people discuss as pushing or pressing the trigger and not pulling it. Activating the trigger has no impact at all in what I'm doing with the rest of my hands.
This is just a couple things I've noticed that make me - a little better at hitting paper targets. The hammer analogy is actually pretty good IMHO, but it isn't how hard you grip the hammer. It is how hard you grip the hammer when you're striking something, you naturally tighten your grip just as it hits the nail, I do - to contain the sudden change of motion of the hammer. You'll also notice you most likely grip it hardest with your pinky finger and lock your wrist just as you hit the nail. Well, you probably do if you are any good with a hammer …
The largest caliber I shoot is 9mm, and if I had to guess I'm probably using 25% of my total potential grip strength. Very firm, but in no way would I say I grip hard at all.
your small finger is stronger than your larger fingers. when I worked in industry and they would train us to carry pails and such correctly, focusing on the strength in your pinky and ring finger to grip with, is far more capable and stronger than your larger two fingers. try carrying a 5 gallon bucket filled with water and it is much easier to do when really activating the smaller 2 fingers. If you've played much baseball, you'll pretty quickly start to swing the bat squeezing hardest with your pinky fingers, and the pointing fingers are used more to aim or guide the bat.
this can be applied to grip on a firearm as well. one thing I kind of notice, is that if I really make a point on a good 2 hand grip, and get as much contact as possible with my left hand. there is a point where I'm adjusting my grip where I can freely move my trigger finger rapidly and tap it as fast as possible between the trigger and the trigger guard, and not have the firearm move at all. For me, this is really kind of where I'm starting to experience what people discuss as pushing or pressing the trigger and not pulling it. Activating the trigger has no impact at all in what I'm doing with the rest of my hands.
This is just a couple things I've noticed that make me - a little better at hitting paper targets. The hammer analogy is actually pretty good IMHO, but it isn't how hard you grip the hammer. It is how hard you grip the hammer when you're striking something, you naturally tighten your grip just as it hits the nail, I do - to contain the sudden change of motion of the hammer. You'll also notice you most likely grip it hardest with your pinky finger and lock your wrist just as you hit the nail. Well, you probably do if you are any good with a hammer …
The largest caliber I shoot is 9mm, and if I had to guess I'm probably using 25% of my total potential grip strength. Very firm, but in no way would I say I grip hard at all.
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Zaydok Allen
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In my experience grip and trigger control are equally important, but a proper grip can help lead to a proper trigger interaction. i.e. It's a lot easier to get a good trigger squeeze if you are gripping the gun properly, which is important to help have a proper amount of finger on the trigger.
That being said, I've watched many people shoot and I've seen folks using an excellent grip who cant shoot worth a darn. More often than not it's because they are flinching and pulling their shots. But I've also seen terrible trigger control as the cause.
I think the two can act independently and equally to screw up shots, and the goal is to integrate the two.
That being said, I've watched many people shoot and I've seen folks using an excellent grip who cant shoot worth a darn. More often than not it's because they are flinching and pulling their shots. But I've also seen terrible trigger control as the cause.
I think the two can act independently and equally to screw up shots, and the goal is to integrate the two.
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Varminterror
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The people who study this stuff, scientifically, have proven that automaticity developed in practice will translate to the motor function response during a stress-event. It’s universally true. It’s the only reason shooters can access their firearm, draw, level/aim, and fire in a stress-event. And shooters will follow their practice. If they aren’t practiced, things tend to go poorly. If they are, the outcome is much more predictable. Fake a jab at a career boxer, see what happens.
So however we practice to grip the pistol is how we WILL grip the pistol during a stress-event. If the level of practice is somewhere between “none” and “not enough,” all bets are off as to how the grip will develop. If the level of practice is somewhere between “enough” and “it’s an extension of my hand,” we can be relatively sure of how the gun will be gripped.
bdickens
Member
Yes.
And if you train techniques that work as much as possible with the way your body reacts under stress, training is that much easier.
And if you train techniques that work as much as possible with the way your body reacts under stress, training is that much easier.
Probably fair. Also, if you regularly "practice" under stress, you can further ensure that what you practice will show up under other stress.
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