Owen
Moderator Emeritus
In another thread ugaarguy stated:
I propose that there is no such thing as a "correct" grip angle, for anybody. I agree completely that gun fit is ultimately important, but with a handgun, that angle is not as critical as the common wisdom holds. Further, the steeper grip angles have distinct advantages, which would lead me to point new shooters towards pistols with that steeper grip angle.
The human wrist is amazingly flexible, and, unlike most of the other joints in the human body has no toggle position or locking set points. In other words, there is no neutral position, just limits of travel, especially in the axis we are concerned with when discussing pistol shooting. The admonition to "lock your wrists" when shooting is impossible to do, because the wrists simply do not lock, except at the limits of their travel.
In addition, there is no such thing as a natural point of aim for a new pistol shooter. I don't care what you put in their hands, they are going to be searching for the sights by rotating their wrists around. They don't yet know what the proper angle is. We have all seen videos of first time shooters who shoot a pistol, and when they recover from the first shot, they need to look for the front sight, because the pistol is pointing down at a fairly steep angle. NPA is something that experienced pistol shooters have. NPA is learned. The reason that some grip angles seem better than others is because your subconscious has already learned the "correct" angle to use with the guns you have been shooting. Regardless of the grip angle of a pistol, you are compensating for that angle, if you realize it or not.
With a rifle or shotgun there are numerous points of contact between the shooter and the gun. You've got the shoulder, the shooting hand, the support hand, and the face. To get all of these things working together, there are at least half a dozen measurements that need to be controlled. Length of pull, drop, cast, trigger reach, circumference of the pistol grip, size of location of the fore end, and so on and so forth.
With a pistol, only the hands touch the weapon. Both of those hands are attached to the rest of the body by those wrist joints we talked about above. Suddenly the number of dimensions that need to be controlled has decreased. The dimensions we are concerned with are primarily the grip circumference, the distance from the backstrap to the trigger, and the grip length. Secondary considerations are the grip angle, how high on the gun you can get (to reduce muzzle flip), finger grooves, the "palm swell" aka the hump on the bottom of the grip and the roundness of the stocks.
The importance of the primary measurements is obvious. The shooter must be able to get their fingers around the grips to hold the gun firmly, and the shooter also has to be able to reach the trigger with enough finger to press the trigger straight to the rear. The length of the grip is important, because nothing is harder to shoot than a pistol you can only get two fingers on.
Now the roundness of the stocks is really a matter of preference. I like my stocks to have a certain amount of squareness to them, so I can feel the edges, and know I have the gun located properly in my hand before I start to rip it out of the holster.
Finger grooves: I hate them. I have smallish hands, and the grooves are always too far apart. I have been considering taking a belt sander to the bumps on my G17, but I think it would push me out of production division in USPSA.
That palm swell on the bottom is interesting. It's very interesting to me that so many people that swear by the arched mainspring housing on their government models also swear to the perfection of the Government Model grip angle. The hump does two things. It pushes the hand higher on the grip, and changes the effective grip angle. Without the arched housing the front strap and backstrap are parallel, and give a grip angle of about 11 degrees. The arched mainspring housing changes the grip angle to about 12 or 13 degrees, depending on how big the shooter's hands are. Pushing the hand up on the gun is important because the higher the hands are, the less muzzle flip the shooter will experience. The closer the web of the hand and the center of recoil are, the better.
This brings us to the grip angle.
The standard american grip angle, because of the Government Model's influence is about 11 degrees. The Glock grip angle is about 22. Target pistols with adjustable angle grips are often set around 35 degrees.
35 degrees is fantastic for shooting with one hand only. For most people it puts the wrist at the limit of travel in the vertical direction. Voila! The wrist has been locked! Adjust the palm rest so the gun won't fall off your hand, stick you arm out and relax your forearm. Amazingly, the sights will be on target. If you don't believe me, find a friend with a high end precision air pistol, and give it a shot. So much for that 11 degree grip angle being correct!
The other thing that steep grip angle does is it places the wrist and forearm behind the web of the hand. Instead of just muscle resisting the recoil, you now have the wrist behind the thumb, and the long bones of the forearm directly behind the wrist. The shooter now has bone and mass resisting recoil, not just the strength of the wrist.
So we have an upper limit somewhere around 35 degrees. A perpendicular grip is usable, but uncomfortable. When I point my finger, my knuckles are around 5 degrees. (I took a really crappy picture and measured) So I'd say that anywhere from 5 degrees to 35 degrees is usable for a pistol grip, at least for me, a man with strong, but smallish hands. I suspect a woman would have a much larger range of motion that I do. Remember, there is no true neutral position for the wrist.
(I can't believe I'm about to advocate Weaver stance. Darn you Gunsite!!) Now, moving to two hands, the easiest transition from one hand to two hands is the Weaver Stance. The Weaver Stance has the chest squared to the target, the shooting arm is straight and locked, and the support hand is wrapped around the shooting hand, is rotated so that it nests within the shooting hand in the pocket on the support side of the grip and is pulling back hard, the support elbow is pointing down and is somewhat bent. In this stance, the shooting arm is still directly behind the pistol. The problem is that with a 35 degree grip angle, and the bent support hand, we can no longer bend the support wrist far enough to get good contact with the stocks or the shooting hand. If we decrease that angle a bit, the thumbs can now spoon the way they are supposed to. Note that this angle is probably around 25 to 26 degrees for people with typical wrists; still steeper than the 22 degree angle on a "too steep" Glock. If we pick this new angle properly, the support hand is locked against it's limit of travel. With the locked support wrist we have effectively prevented the front sight from dropping too low. With the reduced muzzle flip, we have eliminated most of the upward variation in the angle of the pistol.
In other words, we have decreased the majority of error in the vertical axis, simply by moving the shooting wrist up behind the thumb, and the placing the support wrist at it's limit of travel. In fact, we are pretty close to being able to shoot simply by pointing the straight, locked shooting arm at the target and pulling the trigger. I find that the 11 degree grip angle is not quite steep enough to accomplish this.
So, for pointability, grip angle is not particularly important. Any reasonable grip angle will do, your subconscious will adjust to it fairly quickly. For mechanical shooting reasons, a steeper grip angle offers significant advantages, and the Glock grip angle isn't quite steep enough.
(I need to find some help to take photos, and then I'll post this on my blog)
I propose that there is no such thing as a "correct" grip angle, for anybody. I agree completely that gun fit is ultimately important, but with a handgun, that angle is not as critical as the common wisdom holds. Further, the steeper grip angles have distinct advantages, which would lead me to point new shooters towards pistols with that steeper grip angle.
The human wrist is amazingly flexible, and, unlike most of the other joints in the human body has no toggle position or locking set points. In other words, there is no neutral position, just limits of travel, especially in the axis we are concerned with when discussing pistol shooting. The admonition to "lock your wrists" when shooting is impossible to do, because the wrists simply do not lock, except at the limits of their travel.
In addition, there is no such thing as a natural point of aim for a new pistol shooter. I don't care what you put in their hands, they are going to be searching for the sights by rotating their wrists around. They don't yet know what the proper angle is. We have all seen videos of first time shooters who shoot a pistol, and when they recover from the first shot, they need to look for the front sight, because the pistol is pointing down at a fairly steep angle. NPA is something that experienced pistol shooters have. NPA is learned. The reason that some grip angles seem better than others is because your subconscious has already learned the "correct" angle to use with the guns you have been shooting. Regardless of the grip angle of a pistol, you are compensating for that angle, if you realize it or not.
With a rifle or shotgun there are numerous points of contact between the shooter and the gun. You've got the shoulder, the shooting hand, the support hand, and the face. To get all of these things working together, there are at least half a dozen measurements that need to be controlled. Length of pull, drop, cast, trigger reach, circumference of the pistol grip, size of location of the fore end, and so on and so forth.
With a pistol, only the hands touch the weapon. Both of those hands are attached to the rest of the body by those wrist joints we talked about above. Suddenly the number of dimensions that need to be controlled has decreased. The dimensions we are concerned with are primarily the grip circumference, the distance from the backstrap to the trigger, and the grip length. Secondary considerations are the grip angle, how high on the gun you can get (to reduce muzzle flip), finger grooves, the "palm swell" aka the hump on the bottom of the grip and the roundness of the stocks.
The importance of the primary measurements is obvious. The shooter must be able to get their fingers around the grips to hold the gun firmly, and the shooter also has to be able to reach the trigger with enough finger to press the trigger straight to the rear. The length of the grip is important, because nothing is harder to shoot than a pistol you can only get two fingers on.
Now the roundness of the stocks is really a matter of preference. I like my stocks to have a certain amount of squareness to them, so I can feel the edges, and know I have the gun located properly in my hand before I start to rip it out of the holster.
Finger grooves: I hate them. I have smallish hands, and the grooves are always too far apart. I have been considering taking a belt sander to the bumps on my G17, but I think it would push me out of production division in USPSA.
That palm swell on the bottom is interesting. It's very interesting to me that so many people that swear by the arched mainspring housing on their government models also swear to the perfection of the Government Model grip angle. The hump does two things. It pushes the hand higher on the grip, and changes the effective grip angle. Without the arched housing the front strap and backstrap are parallel, and give a grip angle of about 11 degrees. The arched mainspring housing changes the grip angle to about 12 or 13 degrees, depending on how big the shooter's hands are. Pushing the hand up on the gun is important because the higher the hands are, the less muzzle flip the shooter will experience. The closer the web of the hand and the center of recoil are, the better.
This brings us to the grip angle.
The standard american grip angle, because of the Government Model's influence is about 11 degrees. The Glock grip angle is about 22. Target pistols with adjustable angle grips are often set around 35 degrees.
35 degrees is fantastic for shooting with one hand only. For most people it puts the wrist at the limit of travel in the vertical direction. Voila! The wrist has been locked! Adjust the palm rest so the gun won't fall off your hand, stick you arm out and relax your forearm. Amazingly, the sights will be on target. If you don't believe me, find a friend with a high end precision air pistol, and give it a shot. So much for that 11 degree grip angle being correct!
The other thing that steep grip angle does is it places the wrist and forearm behind the web of the hand. Instead of just muscle resisting the recoil, you now have the wrist behind the thumb, and the long bones of the forearm directly behind the wrist. The shooter now has bone and mass resisting recoil, not just the strength of the wrist.
So we have an upper limit somewhere around 35 degrees. A perpendicular grip is usable, but uncomfortable. When I point my finger, my knuckles are around 5 degrees. (I took a really crappy picture and measured) So I'd say that anywhere from 5 degrees to 35 degrees is usable for a pistol grip, at least for me, a man with strong, but smallish hands. I suspect a woman would have a much larger range of motion that I do. Remember, there is no true neutral position for the wrist.
(I can't believe I'm about to advocate Weaver stance. Darn you Gunsite!!) Now, moving to two hands, the easiest transition from one hand to two hands is the Weaver Stance. The Weaver Stance has the chest squared to the target, the shooting arm is straight and locked, and the support hand is wrapped around the shooting hand, is rotated so that it nests within the shooting hand in the pocket on the support side of the grip and is pulling back hard, the support elbow is pointing down and is somewhat bent. In this stance, the shooting arm is still directly behind the pistol. The problem is that with a 35 degree grip angle, and the bent support hand, we can no longer bend the support wrist far enough to get good contact with the stocks or the shooting hand. If we decrease that angle a bit, the thumbs can now spoon the way they are supposed to. Note that this angle is probably around 25 to 26 degrees for people with typical wrists; still steeper than the 22 degree angle on a "too steep" Glock. If we pick this new angle properly, the support hand is locked against it's limit of travel. With the locked support wrist we have effectively prevented the front sight from dropping too low. With the reduced muzzle flip, we have eliminated most of the upward variation in the angle of the pistol.
In other words, we have decreased the majority of error in the vertical axis, simply by moving the shooting wrist up behind the thumb, and the placing the support wrist at it's limit of travel. In fact, we are pretty close to being able to shoot simply by pointing the straight, locked shooting arm at the target and pulling the trigger. I find that the 11 degree grip angle is not quite steep enough to accomplish this.
So, for pointability, grip angle is not particularly important. Any reasonable grip angle will do, your subconscious will adjust to it fairly quickly. For mechanical shooting reasons, a steeper grip angle offers significant advantages, and the Glock grip angle isn't quite steep enough.
(I need to find some help to take photos, and then I'll post this on my blog)
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