Group size vs. placement

[itgoesboom]

Bogie,

Thats almost exactly the same thing that I showed above with the photo. Zero for 200 yards, but shot the group at 80 yards, and it hits right where it is supposed to.

But it's not the bullseye, so according to several people on the thread its a miss.

I.G.B.

 

[bogie]

Think we can talk any of 'em into showing up? And bringing money?

Lot of folks here lately who talk a lot, but you gotta wonder how much they shoot...

 

[Zak Smith]

$5 says no.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

I have not shot .4 or .3 groups before. Well maybe for a few shots but never over the 20 shots I shoot prone most every weekend in matches.
The 20 shots I fired in slow prone this weekend was only a 200 reduced match and maybe if I had not screwed up and dropped that one 9 out the left just off the 10 ring my group would of stayed under 2" for the day instead of 3". My bad as it was only my first match of the year and it still killed me to drop that 1 point for a lousy 199. It should teach me to pay a little most attention to what the wind is doing and those nasty sudden let offs. But I do have a tendency to drop a few points once in awhile at 600 yards also. My rapid prone sucked also because those 20 shots were only 3" also.
You guys know what I call a good group?
It is when I pull the trigger and I know every time EXACTLY where my shot went on every shot good or bad no matter if I am standing in a 20 mph wind or prone on the ground at the National championships.

I believe and I know alot of others that believe the same thing that if I am shooting a rapid prone at 300 yards and my group is like 3" then I stand a whole lot better chance of a good score than the guy shooting a 5" group.
If I miss that wind call or it gusts or lets off during that string and yes I have made a few changes in a string because of that. I know that 1 moa group I just shot or even a 1 1/4 moa will still keep me inside the 10 ring no matter if I missed the wind or had a light change for elevation.

Now I know that what I do is primitive. Laying out in the snow or cold or rain or wind or hot sun on a mat or dirt or grass with just the sling, glove, jacket and OH dang those allfull AR15 sights is not what some of you are considering a test of your metal but Me and a few friends try.

Now every one should with a little practice know what sight change it should take to get your group to the middle.
Now I do know that if I take even my lousy score from sat. and take the lousy 10 points I dropped in the first 10 shots of off hand, and the lousy 3 points I dropped in the first string of rapid sitting and the clean in the rapid prone string and the lousy 1 point I dropped in prone my score for a 50 shot leg match would have come out to a score that would of put me in the top 100 scores fired in a EIC match last year and more than likely the top 50. But so What, I made the list last year anyway.

So what does all of the above mean? NOT A DANG THING!!!!!!!

I could not hit the side of a barn with a pistol or with a shotgun shoot a perfect score in trap either or without practice shoot a .3 or .4 with a scope off a bench while its tightened down in a vice either.

So where does that leave me?
Well I could send you a schedule of my matches to come and I get beat on a regular basis but I tell anybody this on this site!!!
IF you beat me at 600 yards at my game or even 200 yards at my game in prone and I will give you my equipment to use so its all equal if you do not have your own I will buy the beers or lunch if you win and you know what I would most likely buy anyway if I won!!!

Will I come and play your game NO I won't because I do not care to as I have my schedule full enough with my own sport.

So Zak you keep your $5 and just show up at the any any match at Buffalo Creek on the 17th of April and lunch after the match is on me. I trust I will see you at a match very soon I would think?

 

[444]

I guess a couple people beat me to it, but many of the people responding to this thread are assuming that the goal is to hit the bullseye and that is the only possible correct outcome. They shot a great group, BUT since the goal is to hit the bullseye, then it was a wasted effort.
But as Zak said: "Rhetorical question: What if my intended POI is not at the bullseye, does that still count?"
What if your zero at the range you were shooting was two inches above your point of aim. You decided that the center or "bullseye" was a good aiming point. Your group went EXACTLY where you intended it to go: 2" high. You had no interest or intention of hitting the red dot or whatever. You didn't miss anything. The only problem is that a bunch of people who don't know what you are doing see this as some kind of weakness on your part.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

Exactly my point 444. I agree with you 100%

 

[Delmar]

Anyone up for the chicken or the egg argument??

If you're rifle is sighted for a specific distance and you want to see where the shots land at half the distance, your aim is going to be at a fixed point and you can see where you/your rifle/ammo is going to hit.

The bullseye is only a convienient aiming point. After I get used to what my rifle/load combination does, I'll adjust my aiming point at said range so the bullets will strike the bullseye. I do the same thing in the field on game, whatever it might be.

I too, have had those who advise me to adjust my sights to "hit the bullseye" at a specific range, but those helpful folks assume it is what I am trying to do.

Not necessarily, and I don't mind the advice, either.

If I am trying to learn what my weapon will do at various ranges in the game field, I go with the assumption that my quarry is not going to hold still for that perfect shot while I'm dialing this or adjusting that.

I don't expect bambi to run over to a point where they are exactly 200 yards or so from the muzzle so I can place the shot "in the bullseye". It's called "holdover" or maybe "holdunder".

Your weapon has to be able to hit with some kind of consistancy in order to line everything up, the ammunition has to make the bullet leave the barrel the same way with every shot, and more importantly, the shooter has to be capable of shooting the weapon consistently in order to make it all happen.

If you take away anything out of that combination, you are not likely going to hit what you are aiming at, whether or not its the bullseye.

 

[bogie]

Oh yeah... Time for my favorite gripe...

"Ain't you gonna shoot that target more than once?"

 

[444]

Delmar brings up the next thing I was going to say. Once you leave the target range, you arn't shooting at a bullseye. And unlike the popular myth, close is good enough. Most people that know what is going on, zero their hunting or defense rifle in order to take maximum advantage of the trajectory of the cartridge it is chambered for. For example, with an AR15, a zero of around 200 yards (actually a little further) means that against a humanoid target, you hold in the center of mass from the muzzle out to just shy of 300 yards and you will make a COM shot. It doesn't need to be on the third button on his shirt or it doesn't count. Same goes with hunting: you find a distance to zero your rifle using that particlar load that provides you with the greatest distance that you don't have to hold over or under your target. You don't need to hit a bullseye. The chest cavity is as big as a pie plate. And besides, you can't estimate the range close enough to hit the bullseye in the field at unknown ranges over varied terrain.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

I have given that some thought but have not tried it.
I have noticed when shooting at a target from like 200 out to 600 that the width of the target on my front post gives me a ideal of the distance.
Have any of you tried that as I have not yet?

What I see is the target at 600 yards is pretty thin so I would think it would be hard to hit right on it with hold over but with a standard m16 elevation wheel I would think I could just dial it to the 600 mark and be on.
Because just 100 yards would make a difference in the sight picture I know as going from 600 even down to 500 the target seems so easy and 300 and 200 is like nothing. I know my center of mass is the same for 200 as it is for 300 so the little difference it to me does not really matter as it is still in the chest.
Will have to see how many minutes difference it is so ?
My question 444 is could you possibly use the size of the target on your post giving that most average folks are the same size to give you a rough estimite of distance with open sights.

Just something I have thought about when you say that. I do not know?

 

[Zak Smith]

Using mechanical or optical methods to range using angular demarcation are error prone, but better than nothing. They depend on knowing the size of the target and being able to measure the angle precisely. Even on a fine mil scale, errors of 25 yards or more are common at ranges beyond 800 yards, with moderate to small targets. If you don't know the size of the target accurately, all bets are off.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

Zak thanks .
Thats what I was kinda thinking but as you said it would be better than nothing and for the average Joe it most likely would be a case do not fire either unless you do not have a choice or you know what the yardage is.

thanks Jon

 

[Infidel]

Anyone here remember a fellow named Warren Page?

But of course. He was the best of the gun writers (wellllll ... He and Elmer Keith. Elmer didn't write quite as well, but he told better stories. Hell, He Was There!). And he (Page) taught me how to zero a hunting rifle, right there in the pages of Field & Stream. The same method works today.

Back then, nobody else that I knew in the town of 1101 understood what I was doing and some of them chewed me out for my idiotic sight adjustments. They got real huffy when I adjusted my sights so that the point of impact was not in the center of the bullseye, despite their instructions otherwise. I am amazed at the drift of this thread into more or less personal challenges to others' shooting skills, but it's the same as back more than fifty years ago. Many people just don't get it.

"Accuracy" in a rifle is exactly the same as "precision" and "consistency" and is fully characterized by group size. "Accuracy" in a shooter is the ability to hit where he wants to hit.

"Accuracy" in a specific shooting event can be scored by size of group, or by preprinted scoring rings on a target, or by targets falling, depending on the event. The small accurate group can easily be moved onto the desired point of impact by adjusting the sights, but the coincidence of POI and POA is not "accuracy", it is "sight adjustment". Most of the highpower shooters that I know use a six-o'clock hold, meaning that their aiming point is substantially below their desired impact point. But that POA/POI relationship is carefully adjusted to put the POI in the X-ring.

Wind and other confounding factors are irrelevant to the concept of "accuracy" even though they may dominate the scoring in the shooting event.

This is not hard stuff.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

nope your right its not

 

[RomanKnight]

Thanks, folks, for all your informative replies.

 

[SAWBONES]

"If that ain't accuracy, I don't know what is."

I do. As others have said, it's PRECISION.
The terms accuracy and precision are traditionally misused by gunrag writers who never took or have forgotten what they learned in Physics 101. (More often, the term accuracy is used to apply to everything having to do with where the bullet hits, and term precision isn't even mentioned.)

Sloppy use of language. The worst of it is, most don't even know the difference nowadays.

 

[hrb02]

So...it ain't the size that matters, but where you put it.

I don't buy that argument in either meaning of the double entendre. If I got the groups, I can figure out how to put them where I want them.

If I don't have the groups, I'll never hit what I want to hit.

 

[bogie]

Yeah, well, some folks at a local gun shop think that I'm strange...

Their take on accuracy:

"Hey, it'll bring home the game."

My take:

"Hey, well, should I aim for the center of the shoulder, the side of the shoulder, or an inch behind the shoulder?"

And don't even try to explain how bullet drop drastically increases over distance - one GSC (gun shop commando)'s ironclad rule of thumb was that a bullet drops 1" per hundred yards, which is why they're dangerous out to a mile.

Sheesh.