What scope magnification for "sub-MOA" groups?

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A quarter with a 98 Mauser? At 200 yards? You have GOT to be kidding.

Damien, I'll shoot with you for money. I might even travel to California to do it. Hope you don't mind me shooting a rifle made by this fellow...

http://www.stevensaccuracy.com/

It's single shot, weighs under 10.5 pounds, including scope, and discounting the shooter, it's capable of 1/10 MOA accuracy, assuming that the shooter hasn't bleeped up the barrel. Add in shooter error, and you can figure 0.17 to a quarter MOA.
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I shot that rifle a LOT. Before I even TRIED to do the quarter I had put near 3K rounds down the barrel. I knew that rifle well. I don't have it anymore. The stock kinda blew up on me while shooting. A couple big chunks of wood went flying by my face and a HUGE crack was in the stock. I never did fix it and since sold it. Wish I hadn't, but I joined the Navy and had no safe place to store any of my firearms.

When I shot the quarter we taped it to a target, and put a VERY bright sticker directly over the quarter. The color contrast is what I went for. No way I could have seen the quarter at 100yrds without the sticker.
 
so I'm going to claim to be The Expert here...
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Yeah...I've had match targets scored by benchrest guys. They couldn't believe the groups we were putting up not using a two point rest, in the wind with 3 sets of flags between the line and 100 yrds. We were just using .22s with slings and coats laying down on the ground...surely that couldn't be accurate to them. You all have high accuracy, but can get away with ridiculously high power scopes because the gun doesn't move around from your pulse, muscle vibrations, etc. When it comes to shooting from a sling, you can't effectively use a 45 power scope as it's just too much confusion from reticle movement.
 
Oh.

You shot a quarter-dollar. Once.

I can do that All Day Long.

I can consistently cut playing cards in half edgewise at 100 yards.

Overall, the key thing is CONSISTENCY. If you are position shooting, you want to always pull the trigger at the same spot in your heartbeat cycle. You want to have the rifle bedded consistently (those big gloves...). You want a bone-solid hold (those jackets, slings, etc.). Add in modified sight glasses, etc., etc., and you've got a cool system.

Personally, for an AR, I'd just go with a 4x for general use, and a 14x or so for varminting.
 
I have shot a quarter at 200yrds with my M98, iron sights and surplus ammo. I got so used to how that rifle shot that I could call shots out to 100yrds 99% of the time.

I shot that rifle a LOT. Before I even TRIED to do the quarter I had put near 3K rounds down the barrel. I knew that rifle well. I don't have it anymore. The stock kinda blew up on me while shooting. A couple big chunks of wood went flying by my face and a HUGE crack was in the stock. I never did fix it and since sold it. Wish I hadn't, but I joined the Navy and had no safe place to store any of my firearms.

When I shot the quarter we taped it to a target, and put a VERY bright sticker directly over the quarter. The color contrast is what I went for. No way I could have seen the quarter at 100yrds without the sticker.

waaaaiiiiittttt a second

this sounds so many different types of fishy I don't know where to start.

Now, i totally believe, you tape a quarter to a target at 200 yards, shoot at it enough you will hit it eventually, but that is rather meaningless, a broken watch is right twice a day.

I cannot even SEE a quarter at 200 yards, even with an orange quarter sized sticker I don't think I could see it. If it was a 2 inch diameter sticker over the quarter, then I could probably see it, but then hitting the quarter under the sticker is kind of luck, as you are realyl shooting at the 2 inch sticker.

Also, what explosives do you keep in your stock that would cause the stock to explode?

Also, what do you mean you could 'call out shots'?
 
Oh.

You shot a quarter-dollar. Once.

I can do that All Day Long.
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I wasn't the one that used that as an example. I compete collegiately and have competed in national competitions and done well as well as having been on an international postal team. That match I was talking about was a regional metric prone match with two folks from the Canadian national team team. I won scope day by several points. What I was saying is that optics choice between benchrest and position is quite different as you have movement from the nervous system and heartbeats to deal with as well. If the reticle appears to move too much, you can't shoot well which is why the number of people using 45x scopes for prone is almost none. Most of the people use somewhere between 16 and 24 power, with some going up to 30.
 
assuming the range is 100 yards, you need a varmint of duplex type reticle, or maybe a mildot. I have done it with a 3.9, but I consider that lucky, and a way accurate weapon, more than my skill. At 100 yds, I dont see how you can consistently shoot moa or better , with anything smaller than a 12 x.
 
Thanks, Bogie - your post was more along the lines of what I was looking for than what others have posted (that is, what they're capable of).

Those are called "weather reports."
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I'm sorry - I don't follow. What does that mean?

Also, were you using a bipod? Don't expect to get consistent grouping with one, or any time you set a rifle "hard surface to hard surface." They bounce, and that sends stuff all over the place.
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No, no bipod. I don't believe in shooting like that. Just 'military' prone with a sling.

Decent scope - A used Weaver K4 costs about the same as the Leapers, and may be older than you are, but it'll also outshoot the Leapers.
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I'll keep that in mind, but for that price I'll just stick with what I've got and get something better when funds allow.

Decent trigger - Arnold Jewell makes some nice ones.
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I like two-stage triggers, like the one RRA ships. For whatever reason, I like a little pre-shot 'creep' so I can more easily anticipate the shot and make sure I'm putting it where I want it.

Tighten the upper/lower fit with any of several gizmos available.
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No need, with this rifle - at least yet. It's still under the 2k round mark (just barel), and has no noticeable give whatsoever. First half a dozen times when I took the lower off during cleaning required a brass punch to get the damn pins out, it was so tight.

Consistent rest/technique... Pick something, and stay with it.
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That's what it's all about, isn't it? :p I'm working on doing that.
 
Great question!!! There is such a misconception that scope power equals ability to achieve sub-MOA. False.

I have achieved consistent MOA groups with a 4X, 3.5-10X, 12X, 4.5-14X and 36X scopes. The critical factor is consistency...not power. All movements must be precisely consistent. Without the consistency factor, scope power means nothing. Of course if the rifle is not capable of MOA, all else is for naught. When I bought my 36X scope, I did not dump $1,000.00 into it. I bought a nice, inexpensive BSA for $59.00ish. It works just fine. However, it isn't needed at 100 yards. The reason that I bought a 36X BSA scope was to be able to count and score shots out to 200, 300 yards and beyond without having to walk out to the target each time. Most of the time I use my Leupold 4.5-14 scope and use the BSA 36X scope as a spotting scope. :)

Note, I am eagerly anticipating my next trip to the family farm to test out my 4X ACOG at various distances, for precision in terms of trajectory 100, 200, 300 .. 800 yards (Max. trajectory built in).

On a closing note, if I were able to afford a single scope, I would purchase either a 4X Tasco or a 6X Tasco (or equivalent) scope. It is all that is needed. Yes, I said Tasco! Consistency is king.
 
Best group I ever shot with a rifle was using a fairly inexpensive 3x9 scope set to 9x.

But you don't need that for sub-moa. All you need is good ammo, good technique and a good rifle. I've done it more than once with iron sights.
 
Doc2005, then how are people able to achieve sub-MOA groups with standard (non-match) iron sights?

At least for me, one of the large advantages of a scope is that I am more able to detect my body's motion visually, through the movement in the reticle. With irons, I'm not as readily capable of observing the quirks - breathing, twitching, etc. - which can throw off my shot. I imagine this can, to no small degree, be marginalized through practice/experience, but surely not in entirety.

Additionally, how the hell can you even see the target well enough, no matter what your eye sight is, at 100 yards in conjunction to the relatively massive front sight post? Are the people making sub-MOA irons groups using match grade aperature/crosshair front posts in conjunction to itsy bitsy rear aperatures? When the visual difference of 5" on target is a 10th of the width of the front sight post (or less), how is it even possible to make those minute adjustments?
 
Additionally, how the hell can you even see the target well enough, no matter what your eye sight is, at 100 yards in conjunction to the relatively massive front sight post? Are the people making sub-MOA irons groups using match grade aperature/crosshair front posts in conjunction to itsy bitsy rear aperatures? When the visual difference of 5" on target is a 10th of the width of the front sight post (or less), how is it even possible to make those minute adjustments?
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It's about alignment. The aiming point has to be big enough to be easily visible, but if you have that going for you then the rest is just about getting the sights (front and rear) and the target into the same alignment consistently.

Windage has always been easy to me with decent sights. For elevation, I push the front post up against the bottom of the bullseye until the bullseye begins to "deform". It's not really deforming, obviously, it's some kind of optical illusion. Sort of weird to describe, but it works. When it's just right, you can still see white between the top of the front sight and the bottom of the bull, but the bottom of the bull appears to be slightly flattened.

No, they don't have to be fancy match aperture sights, they just have to be good sights. Good vision helps. Back when I was doing that sort of shooting, I had 20-15 vision after correction.
 
For me, the ammo and rifle dictace the accuracy more than the optics. Taking the time to find loads that shoot well in a good rifle means it's easy to shoot sub-moa with a fixed 4x scope on up to my 4.5-14x Nikon. Having a solid rest is very important too.
 
Actually, I have achieved MOA with my M1A "Loaded" out to 200 yards. It is a challenge, but doable. Practice, practice and practice. You have to have good equipment and practice your consistency.

The world record for pistol, is 3.5" by 1" at 500 yards..iron sights on a T/C Contender. :evil:

Makes me turn 98 shades of envy-green just thinking about it.

Doc2005
 
weather report: Wind blew it thissa way, wind blew it thatta way...
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You'll see +/- 1" variance from light wind at 100 yards?

I need a reference for this kind of thing... grr. Some sort of mathematical equation I can compute as needbe, maybe?
 
You don't need optics at all to get MOA or better groups. Optics have no relationship with the accuracy of the firearm. They help the eye see the target and aim, but they're less critical than modern rifle shooters seem to believe.
 
Purchase a copy of "Precision Shooting" and look at the winners equipment.
These are the guys who would throw a gun away if it only shot MOA.
 
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