Range doofi, #48

[madmike]

Marksmanship.

I get a new AR, I go with a friend to sight it in. Along are his hunting buddies. Now, all nice guys, all responsible, nothing against them. Except they didn't know the basics of marksmanship.

I throw 3 rounds down at 50 yards (brand new built rifle) to get close, then saunter over to 100 to fine tune it.

These guys are shooting prone over a sandbag at 100 yards with scope-sighted medium caliber weapons (.30-.35)...and shooting 12" groups.

And nodding in satisfaction.

While I shoot 2" groups with iron sights on the AR...

My buddy shot well, I was glad to see.

Last year at Atterbury, some guy shows up with a red dot sight and couldn't even get on the paper at 100 yards. He'd twist knobs this way and that, sort of hoping to get close. No pattern, just back and forth with the knobs, casting like a dog. Not sure he ever did get one on paper to work from.

 

[thefitzvh]

Perhaps some help and instruction is in order, rather than watching, chuckling, and posting on a forum about it.

Give the guy a hand, tell him what he's doing wrong. He'll appreciate it later


James

 

[Ryder]

I had a marlin 30-30 that shot 12 inch groups. Darndest thing I ever saw. Now I shot expert in the military so I didn't think it was me and I can get sub .5 MOA with my varmint rifle. It was a good thing though. If it hadn't been for that gun I may well have never taken up handloading. She was shooting 3 inch groups once I figured out her tastes in ammo. Not bad for that gun but I've seen a lever action toss my handloads into half of that.

I can see how it shouldn't make much sense that anyone would be happy with a 12 inch group but as I understand it the rule of thumb around these parts for hunters is to be able to hit a paper plate at the furthest range you intend to shoot. Most take that as 100 yards for deer in these parts even though I'd wager 90% are taken at one third of that.

Speaking of the AR15 I just got one of those not too long ago and am working up a nice collection of empty brass. I'm pretty sure I am going to need it too cause that piece-o-crap is giving me 5 inch groups. I'm reallllly getting tired of hearing about all these 2" groups everyone else gets from their AR

 

[Justin]

Perhaps some help and instruction is in order, rather than watching, chuckling, and posting on a forum about it.

Generally speaking, it's only worth offering help if it's asked for. Offering unsolicited advice to a guy about shooting has a tendency to offend those who've learned to shoot from watching 'Die Hard.'

 

[Joe Demko]

You should send all of them a nice "thank you" card for giving you the opportunity to feel so good about yourself.

 

[madmike]

I did offer to help the guy with the red dot. Nice rifle, nice guy, just no method. He kept saying, "Well, let's twist it over here and see."

Yes, ammo no matched to weapon can cause 12" groups, and it would be adequate for a thorax shot on a deer. Still, I wouldn't be happy with it.

What twist on your AR? What ammo? Heavier ammo generally goes with tighter twist, lighter with looser.

 

[hillbilly]

I work part time as a firearms instructor.

And I would never, ever, under any circumstances, give un-asked-for advice to folks I saw shooting at range.

In my experience, the folks who really need the advice the most are the folks who are most likely to take great offense at being offered unsolicited advice.

Now, if some guy who was getting 12 inch groups looked at me and said, "Hey, I'm getting these huge groups. You know anything I could do to make it better?" then I'd help him to the best of my abilities.

But if two guys are shooting 12 inch groups at 100 yards and nodding with approval to each other over it, there's no way I'd offer them advice unless they asked me specifically for it.

I'd only get cussed at, maybe even swung at in the parking lot for my troubles.

hillbilly

 

[Nightcrawler]

So...you're making fun of somebody because they can't shoot as well as you?

For the record, I have never once, not even once, whipped out my little ruler and measured my "group sizes". I shoot my FAL at human silouette targets. I hit the target, 20 rounds out of a 20 round mag, I'm happy. I'll start moving the target farther back once I have access to a longer range.

But mocking people who can't shoot as good as you...what's the point of that?

 

[kernal_panic]

those guys always scare me. i ran into a couple of them tuesday after work at the range. they were shooting blacl powder rifles that were scoped. really really poor safety habits.

 

[Peetmoss]

I have given unsolicited advice to people on the range before. However it was only after I new them and had shot the breeze with them for awhile usually about there problem.

The last time I did it was a guy with a black powder rifle. He was using new powder and a new scope and was all over the place. After a while I casually mentioned that maybe he should try going from 100 grains to 80 or so. He gave it a try and wham bam could acctually site it in after that.

I think it's how you go about it. Get them to admit they have a problem then offer a suggestion up that worked for you.

 

[uglymofo]

For the longest time I was really happy with my first rifle, a real skank that a dealer laid off on me, the new fish (a sporterized 30-06 Mauser with a Bushnell scope ). I didn't know any better, and was getting 4-6" groups at 100yd off a bench with bags. I never looked at anyone elses's target, figuring that was just plain rude. No one ever said anything to me, and I was happier than a pig in a shirt, til I went out with a friend and shot the same-sized groups with his FN FAL, but standing, no sling, with iron sights. We discussed my "rifle" and I turned it into a tomato stake. It wasn't a cheap lesson ($50 in the early 1970's ), but I learned a big lesson at a cheap price, and I never bought from that dealer again. I spent better than $5,000 over the years at a store down the street, and with the knowledge I have after ~30 years of collecting and shooting, you might say I didn't get to laugh in the end, but I never got took to the hoop again. Sometimes the lessons are "burned" in. At least I had an honest friend looking out for me.

 

[Standing Wolf]

In my experience, the folks who really need the advice the most are the folks who are most likely to take great offense at being offered unsolicited advice.

<wink> Just a coincidence, I'm sure. </wink>

 

[Ryder]

madmike: "What twist on your AR? What ammo? Heavier ammo generally goes with tighter twist, lighter with looser."

Thanks,

It's a bushy carbine (16bbl"). Twist is 1 in 10 (as far as I remember). I bought a bunch of the Federal American Eagle ammo because I like the Federal brass for reloading rifles. Pretty sure it's the 62gr variety. I have shot some 55gr also, but can't say that I noted any big difference in accuracy. The gun has functioned VERY WELL so far. I've got 300 rounds through it to date. I hear that's what break-in is for those chromed barrels. Maybe next trip out is the charm?

I was hoping middle of the road twist and middle of the road weight bullet would have gone together well? It isn't like I am missing the barn but I expect a little more when everyone else gets half my group size. Thinking of trying a heavier bullet once I begin handloading for it. Haven't even bought the dies yet though.

If I don't get this sorted out before too long I'm thinking a 20" upper might do the trick. Probably should have one of those laying around anyways Something's going to work!

 

[longtom4570]

Not long after getting M1 Garand i went the range and set about siteing in, and the guy two tables over was shooting his M1 Garand, when we were at the break, he was looking at his target and was commenting on his groups and could'nt figgure why they were so bad, he said somthing about tearing it apart again to figure out what was wrong. I looked at his target and noticed the were stringing vertical, i asked if he was breathing when he was pulling the trigger, he looked at me funny and said yes,so i told him to take in and let out and hold his breath, his group shrunk just like that.
He went away happy and i saved an M1 from being torn down unneccessarly whew
all and all a good thing

 

[Jim March]

If a guy's not on paper, it's not rude in my opinion to offer to spot for him. A second person can give a ballpark "low/high/left/right" that the shooter can't see when the gun is recoiling if the load/caliber has any zing to it.

 

[C.R.Sam]

Since I look like the grandfather type to most at bout any range...
I can get away with offering suggestions most of the time.

Opener sumpin like "May I offer a suggestion sir/maam ?."
Rarely do they seem intruded upon.

Sam

 

[madmike]

It's a bushy carbine (16bbl"). Twist is 1 in 10 (as far as I remember). I bought a bunch of the Federal American Eagle ammo because I like the Federal brass for reloading rifles. Pretty sure it's the 62gr variety. I have shot some 55gr also, but can't say that I noted any big difference in accuracy. The gun has functioned VERY WELL so far.

I presonally detest Bushies and have never shot one I liked. But that sounds like a good match of ammo and barrel. Try some heavier loads to check, see if the group stabilizes.

If not, try a less powerful load, if you can find some or get some loaded. It may not be combusting completely before the projectile leaves the muzzle, so it won't be consistent.

Then try another brand of ammo. Bad lots happen, quirks happen.

Examine the barrel for any damage to the rifling, or "Hanging chads" (machining flaws such as metal shavings. Shouldn't make it through quality control, but every mfr has bad days. I've seen three Bushies with the barrel set askew in the receiver that COULDN'T shoot straight, and a muzzle brake bored at about 14 degrees off line.)

If nothing helps, call them and ask. They may offer advice or even ask for it back for examination.

Also check the lockup between upper and lower receivers. Any wobble can make a hash of accuracy.

 

[swingset]

I presonally detest Bushies and have never shot one I liked.

Just curious, why don't you like them? Either they're made to shoot correctly or they're not?? Is it the name, bad experiences, or is there something they do to their rifles that's different than, say, dpms or RRA?

Not jabbing at you, just wondering unless an AR is messed up, what's the real dif between manufacturers?

 

[madmike]

Just curious, why don't you like them? Either they're made to shoot correctly or they're not?? Is it the name, bad experiences, or is there something they do to their rifles that's different than, say, dpms or RRA?
Not jabbing at you, just wondering unless an AR is messed up, what's the real dif between manufacturers?

I've handled six. Four had mfr or assembly problems. That ruins my confidence in their ability to offer a good product. The other two seemed fine. But receivers not bored straight is a SERIOUS error. Others here have reported the same problem.

Same thing with my father and Glocks. I love Glocks. He had two in succession with bad triggers. So he doesn't trust them.

IF everything was machined to tolerance, any AR should shoot to military accuracy. Bushie has a good reputation in general. I may have just run into a fluke of bad ones. But if 2/3 of Brand X didn't work for you, would you buy another?

I understand Olympic had problems at one time. Mine works fine, so I have no reason to worry.

This is why capitalism is wonderful. We can each choose the manufacturer we prefer for our deadly semiautomatic assault weapon Rambo killing machines.

 

[Ryder]

Thanks for the input madmike.

I've considered it might be a hanging chad thing. Guess I am going to have to get out those reading glasses and take a closer look. No noise enhancer on my rifle, waiting for the AWB to expire on that. I wouldn't know how to begin checking to see if the bbl is attached slightly askew. My lockup was good when new but I did put a wedge in it. I'll see what happens without that installed.

 

[kentucky bucky]

A place where I worked switched from .38 S&W revolvers to 9mm automatic pistols and they trained us extensively on proper placement of the left thumb, so that the older people that had only shot revolvers would not get injured. There was one DOOFUS that split his thumb open three years in a row, even after extra tutoring by the instructors.:banghead: You could always tell where he shot because there was a blood trail.......... Thank God he finally retired and they could keep the first aid kit stocked up.

 

[Croyance]

Do lack of knowledge and experience really make a person a doufus? We all had to learn at some point.