Gun death statistic

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That would mean that the average US gun owner has two guns. I think the average gun owner in most European countries would own closer to one gun on average. Right off the bat that cuts the murders per gun in half for the US gun owners, assuming all other variables are equal. It does tip the odds in favor of the pro-US-gun-ownership side, but it is misleading.
In Europe there usually are more guns per gun owner, but there are far less gun owners than in the US. A large part of owners are hunters, so they usually own at least 2 guns, another large part are competition shooters who also will own more guns on average.
 
Be careful how you argue. If the friends are smart, they'll point out that most people who own guns own more than one, so of course the number of deaths per gun are low; a collector with a hundred guns will likely be [at most] responsible for one or two deaths (to be very morbidly blunt). What I'm trying to say is that number of deaths per gun is kind of a meaningless (or worse, misleading) figure when applied to the US because of their uneven distribution. Number of gun deaths per gun owner is a more useful statistic to compare.

And although no one asked, here's how I argue when someone tries to compare the US to other countries:

1) Self defense is an inalienable right, and I believe that all people should be granted the means to effectively defend themselves
2) If all guns disappeared from the world today, effective self defense would still be relevant due to the inherent existence of crimes such as assault and rape. Thus, gun ownership for self defense is universally relevant.
3) [Speaking to an anti] You believe that private gun ownership causes a higher overall rate of murder. While I could argue with that, I'll go ahead and give it to you- sure, for the sake of argument let's assume guns cause the murder rate to be higher. Why is a slightly (at most) higher murder rate (as opposed to the murder rate if all guns disappeared) more concerning to you than a loss of everyone's universal right to self defense?
i see that you missed my entire point. I know they know most gun owners own more than one gun, but I also know that the left tries to say guns cause death, not people. so the perfect response is to show how many deaths there are compared to how many guns there are. this makes the deaths per guns very low. lowest in the entire world most likely.
 
i see that you missed my entire point. I know they know most gun owners own more than one gun, but I also know that the left tries to say guns cause death, not people. so the perfect response is to show how many deaths there are compared to how many guns there are. this makes the deaths per guns very low. lowest in the entire world most likely.

You're right, I did miss that point.
 
Gun Death Statistics

From the NBC series The Facts: Guns in America

Guns in the United States - 2011
114 Million Handguns,
110 Million Rifles,
86 Million Shotguns,

Murder in the United States - 2011
12,664 Total
8,583 Firearm related
6,220 Handguns 72%
323 Rifles 4%
356 Shotguns 4%
1,684 Unspecified firearm 20%

Given the dependance of FBI UCR homicide data on reportage by agencies (PDs and SOs), I'll divide and redistribute the "Unspecified" by the proportion of the specified for guestimate purposes:

6,736 Handgun murders = 1 handgun murder of 16,924 handguns
407 Rifle murders = 1 rifle murder of 270,270 rifles
340 Shotgun murders = 1 shotgun murder of 241,573 shotguns

(I notice the total homicides (12,664) include about 4,081 non-gun homicides, but the anti-gunners like to cite 12,000 gun murders per year when talking about the subject (sometimes throwing in 18,000 suicides and calling it 30,000 murders) and talk as though without guns, there would be no murders at all.)
 
Carl's point is spot on.

The fallacy of most of the antis is that total murders are made up of murders using guns, murders using blunt objects, murders using knives, murders using poison, etc., and that if you eliminate murders using guns, murders using other methods will remain constant. So if half of murders were committed with guns, removing guns would cut the murder rate in half.

Of course, this is folly. Someone intent on murder, or suicide for that matter, will find a way if a firearm is not available.
 
I'd still like to find out how many m(b?)illions of rounds of ammunition are fired every year in normal recreational and hunting activities and compare it to even the inflated figures for deaths cited by the anti-gunners.

Facetiously speaking, I'd bet it would show that shooting is safer than bowling.

Terry, 230RN
 
MachIVshooter and 230RN are right on.

Almost all the statistics in political circulation are bogus. As MachIVshooter points out, all the violence is committed by a group less than 0.0138% the size of the overall firearms owning population. Ignoring that this is inflated with justifiable homicides, repeat offenders, etc.

Further, all the statistics on violent use of firearms ARE BASED ON THAT RELATIVELY TINY GROUP OF PEOPLE. And they are easily identified as gang members, drug culture, career criminals, mentally challenged (including wife beating social misfits). The statistics do not generally apply to the larger population that owns firearms.

I like to tell antis that there are probably thousands or tens of thousands of rounds fired for non violent recreation for every one fired in violence.

I leave the actual number open as I've been too lazy to check out match scores at clubs across the country to see how many shooters were at the match and how many shots the course of fire required. It's probably pretty mind boggling.

Then I like to leave them with this video of the average firearms owner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTrutPuAbdc :evil:
 
I like to tell antis that there are probably thousands or tens of thousands of rounds fired for non violent recreation for every one fired in violence.

I think it is quite a bit more than that.

I wouldn't necessarily call it recreating though, in case they decide to go on the idea that recreation is what we want our Rights and Liberties for.
 
What most of you seem to be missing is that anti's don't care what the numbers are.
They don't care if it is justified, gang related, suicide, or accidental.
All they see and care about is it was a DEATH CAUSED by a GUN.
In their minds, if guns were illegal or somehow banished from the planet , there would be NO MORE gun deaths.
NONE of the people that are killed by guns would DIE.
It's all very simple & they can't understand why you don't understand.
 
I'll repeat myself.

Criminologist Marvin Wolfgang personally hated guns. He stated if he were Mustapha Mond, dictator of "Brave New World", he would ban all guns. He also studied 588 homicides in detail, going into the background of murderer and victim, circumstances of the murder, etc. and concluded:
More than the availability of a shooting weapon is involved in homicide. Pistols and revolvers are not difficult to purchase [illegally on the street] ... The type of weapon used appears to be, in part, the culmination of assault intentions or events and is only superficially related to causality. To measure quantitatively the effect of the presence of firearms on the homicide rate would require knowing the number and type of homicides that would not have occurred had not the offender_ or, in some cases, the victim_ possessed a gun. Research would require determination of the number of shootings that would have been stabbings, beatings, or some other method of inflicting death had no gun been available. It is the contention of this observer that few homicides due to shootings could be avoided merely if a firearm were not immediately present, and that the offender would select some other weapon to achieve the same destructive goal. Probably only in those cases where a felon kills a police officer, or vice versa, would homicide be avoided in the absence of a firearm.
In homicide, motive and opportunity are bigger factors than means.

And if someone wants to bring up British handgun ban and handgun crime figures, there's this:
1997 British Handgun Ban and British Murders and Robberies
o Six years before the handgun ban (1991-1996):
Total murders: 4,240, handgun murders: 176,
Total robberies: 358,178, handgun robberies: 17,321.
o Six years after the ban (1998-2003):
Total murders: 5,103, handgun murders: 255,
Total robberies: 576,218, handgun robberies: 17,047.

Handgun murders increased from 176 in the six years before the handgun ban, to 255 after the handgun ban, or up 49%. Total murders increased from 4,240 before to 5,103 after or up 20%, so handgun murders as a percentage of the total murders went from 4.15% before to 4.99% after. But there was a reduction in handgun robbery by about 1% from 17,321 to 17,047. The six-year before and six-year after totals shows 20% more murder and 60% more robbery, but the significant increases are in the good non-handgun violence, not in the horrid handgun violence.

How could removing handguns from the hands and homes of registered handgun owners result in more non-handgun violence, if handguns are the germ of violence and the root of all evil? Hmmmm.
 
Warp noted,

I wouldn't necessarily call it recreating though, in case they decide to go on the idea that recreation is what we want our Rights and Liberties for.

Good point. The trouble is that they've made "suppression of tyranny" a politically incorrect concept, and one which gets you on "lists" and have "dossiers" opened with your name on them.

Terry, 230RN
 
All they see and care about is it was a DEATH CAUSED by a GUN.

Is that sort of like "all they see and care about is it was a black person"? Both come under the heading of bigotry (treating a group as a stereotype) and they need to have that pushed in their faces.

I wouldn't necessarily call it recreating though, in case they decide to go on the idea that recreation is what we want our Rights and Liberties for.

I think that the 2nd Amendment is too narrow and that firearms ownership should be considered as part of a broader civil right of personal freedom on the same level as being able to sit at any lunch counter or sit in any seat on a bus. Attempts to restrict are too often based on stereotypes and prejudices--bigotry--or blatant discrimination based on income (fees, taxes that burden less well off unequally) and haters (whoa, an apt term) need to be treated as bigots.
 
Quote:
All they see and care about is it was a DEATH CAUSED by a GUN.
Is that sort of like "all they see and care about is it was a black person"? Both come under the heading of bigotry (treating a group as a stereotype) and they need to have that pushed in their faces.


No, I wouldn't say so, they don't discriminate against us as gun owners, only the GUNS we insist on owning.
 
Actually they do discriminate against us as firearms owners. Not being able to carry or restricting locations (because we're evil gun owners), imposing bans, taxes and fees because we are "evil" and need to be controlled. It's not about controlling firearms, it is about controlling people.
 
Originally posted by stchman:

There are more firearm related deaths from suicide that homicide, but the antis don't want to hear that.
About 2/3s of all firearms deaths are by suicide. The antis always lump in the suicides to inflate the figures.

And I always point out the primary cause of suicide is clinical depression, and ask, "Are you saying that a man so depressed he wants to put a gun in his mount and pull the trigger would be CURED if he couldn't get a gun? And go through the rest of his life skipping and whistling?"
 
The thing of it is, gun deaths in the USA are a fairly high number for the very simple and obvious reason that there are a lot of guns in the USA. Death is death. "Machete deaths" are very high in lets say Guatemala and Honduras.

Also remember that all gun (or any other weapon) death of a person is homicide. Self defense, police action, accident, suicide. Something like 2/3 are suicide, 1/4 are accidents with the rest deliberate shooting, lawful or otherwise (some of the unlawful being murder).

The more meaningful numbers are the murder rate and the violent crime rate. Violent crime is murder, rape, kidnapping, assault, armed robbery (regardless of weapon) and a couple of other serious crimes.

In the realm of violent crime, the USA is really very low. Lower than the UK for example. Places in Latin America and Africa are very high.
 
Guy B. Meredith remarked,

I think that the 2nd Amendment is too narrow and that firearms ownership should be considered as part of a broader civil right of personal freedom on the same level as being able to sit at any lunch counter or sit in any seat on a bus. Attempts to restrict are too often based on stereotypes and prejudices--bigotry--or blatant discrimination based on income (fees, taxes that burden less well off unequally) and haters (whoa, an apt term) need to be treated as bigots.

I have said that for many years (as well as others) but I haven't heard it said so well.

I've compared our struggle to that other civil rights struggle many times and frequently refer to firearms ownership as a fundamental civil right and added wisecracks about separate drinking fountains. Oh, and snide move to the back of the bus remarks.

(For which I've been ill-treated by some forums.) :D

Terry, 230RN
 
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The US is also fundamentally different in demographics.
^This...

Critics of America have no problem comparing a racially, and culturally diverse country like the United States against near homogeneous populations of people half or even a quarter the size of the U.S.

It is a disingenuous argument.
 
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