Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
Jon, I wonder where you get that BS? I know exactly where you get it, of course. I get it too...and I hate it.
gun "game" gripes? what are they?
- Thread starter john l
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WHOA WHOA WHOA
INTRINSIC VALUE
Please consider the difference between golf, a 'game', and IDPA / IPSC.
I am proud to compete in these 'games' (do I REALLY have to join IDPA to compete in my second match?).
And to whomever thinks I disparage IDPA unfairly, tough. I have a marvelous sense of humor, whether 'you' get it or not.
A lttle lighthearted poking-of-fun is good for the soul, and hopefully one is humble enough not to get all torqued out of shape over the perception of goring the sacred -- yet still only a game -- ox.
Or something like that.
Enough! We go shooting!
INTRINSIC VALUE
Please consider the difference between golf, a 'game', and IDPA / IPSC.
I am proud to compete in these 'games' (do I REALLY have to join IDPA to compete in my second match?).
And to whomever thinks I disparage IDPA unfairly, tough. I have a marvelous sense of humor, whether 'you' get it or not.
A lttle lighthearted poking-of-fun is good for the soul, and hopefully one is humble enough not to get all torqued out of shape over the perception of goring the sacred -- yet still only a game -- ox.
Or something like that.
Enough! We go shooting!
faustulus
Member
Match fees are cheaper?
I only have to things that really bug me about IDPA. The "get shot in the head while I reload, reload" also known as the tactical reload. I heard this was really started at Gunsite because of the sand and dirt getting in the mags when they were dropped. Is this true, does anyone know more about this. If so they are not "tactical" at all and are actually pushing the practice of an unsafe habit. I like a lot of people know quite a few Police and was in the academy, not one single person from anywhere has ever been told to keep the mags much less perform the "tactical reload". If this reload was started from a need in class and grew to be called a "tactical reload" it is named wrong and should be changed to "sand free reload".
The other which I can live with better because its part of the IDPA game is "because thats real life". Why wouldn't I carry a 7 shot wheel gun in real life. Why wouldn't I have a bull barrel to keep recoil and speed up 2nd shoot recovery in real life. I can play by the rules just drop the real life thing. In real life I don't down load my mags and run into a room where I know 3 guys are waiting to kill me. I think I am done here. I shot some IDPA and IPSC and what ever looks fun so I don't mean to offend anyone. Does anyone know where the "tactical reload" came from?
The other which I can live with better because its part of the IDPA game is "because thats real life". Why wouldn't I carry a 7 shot wheel gun in real life. Why wouldn't I have a bull barrel to keep recoil and speed up 2nd shoot recovery in real life. I can play by the rules just drop the real life thing. In real life I don't down load my mags and run into a room where I know 3 guys are waiting to kill me. I think I am done here. I shot some IDPA and IPSC and what ever looks fun so I don't mean to offend anyone. Does anyone know where the "tactical reload" came from?
Andrew Wyatt
Member
The tactical reload is indeed, tactical.
It's intended to be used in a lull in the fight where you have some extra time and are behind cover and have a partially full magazine, and is based on the idea that leaving behind a perfectly good magazine with ammo in it is bad.
as such, it's probably something that should not be done on the clock.
It's intended to be used in a lull in the fight where you have some extra time and are behind cover and have a partially full magazine, and is based on the idea that leaving behind a perfectly good magazine with ammo in it is bad.
as such, it's probably something that should not be done on the clock.
faustulus
Member
Let me get this straight, I am supposed to grab a mag out of my gun, which takes longer, and store it for later use. Now later when I grab a mag thinking it is full only to find out it has two rounds left about the time I need another round. I am going to assume there is no lull, until my opponent is neutralized, then I am going to drop my mag a load a fresh one.
Tatical reloads got their start at gunsite or thunder ranch (forget which) dropping 1911 mags into fine sand plays havoc with the guns. Bill Wilson is beginning to believe his own PR.
Tatical reloads got their start at gunsite or thunder ranch (forget which) dropping 1911 mags into fine sand plays havoc with the guns. Bill Wilson is beginning to believe his own PR.
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Smoke
Member
Skunk,
"Only a pimp in a cheap New Orleans whore house would have pearl grips" Gen. George Patton
Sorry, couldn't resist....
"Only a pimp in a cheap New Orleans whore house would have pearl grips" Gen. George Patton
Sorry, couldn't resist....
Archie
Member
No, I'm not a baseball fan.
I do have to agree with you about the super-zealous tactical types. I carry a gun for a living and I've never had to hold a knife between my teeth.
But in all instances where I drew a gun or might have drawn a gun, I didn't have any "prep time" to re-arrange the furniture or walk through the course of fire.
I'm with you, it ought to be fun. I get frustrated with the extreme artificiality. And the prima donnas.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
Well, considering that reaching for a magazine and not finding one at all is way worse than reaching for one and finding two rounds in it, i'd say the tactical reload is worthwhile, wouldn't you?
go to skul and learn how to do a tactical reload and how it's used before you complain about it being useless.
charleym3
Member
The simple way to solve this problem is to shoot a real, oops, I mean Wheel, gun. 
faustulus
Member
Which school would that be? None of the police academies I know use it. FBI academy doesn't use it. I don't like it but I realize it is part of the game, I just get ticked when some gunstore commando insists it is the "tatical" way.
I plan on it, just not a 627 .357 because "in the real world no one would carry an 8 shot revolver.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
IIRC, Gunsite, Thunder ranch, Options for personal security, and the local PD all teach the tactical reload.
FBI does, too.
I don't think it should be every reload, and i don't think it should be stressed to the exclusion of the speed, or empty magazine reload.
faustulus
Member
as I said above, one of these places originated the idea.
Not the last I checked.
I am not saying they don't have their place, I am just saying they don't have their place in a gunfight.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
The Tactical, or partial magazine reload isn't used when you're actively engaged, so no, it doesn't have a place in the middle of a gunfight.
Shaughn Leayme
Member
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2002
- Messages
- 245
I don't like this level playing field concept, such as down loading a magazine or cylinder.
If your magazine or cylinder capacity is 6,7,8, 10, 15 or 20 plus and this is how you normally carry your weapon of choice, then this is how it should be used in the competition.
Don't allow walk thru's on every stage, everyone does 1 or 2 stages cold and slightly change the course of fire between shooters, to prevent anyone from tipping off another.
This would require the competitor to think and improvise, instead of choreographing it. Targets should be wearing clothing to conceal scoring zones and have props to help determine GG's from BG's or in addition to clothing to make the competitior think and determine if this is a GG or BG.
Tactical reload with or with out retention, should be up to the shooter and if you are in a cold stage, then you will not know if you need that ammunition and since you don't know what is up ahead, the question is do you continue with what ammunition is currently in the pistol and hope for another point to reload, dump the magazine and reload or retain and reload.
That would make it interesting, it would also require a fair bit of thought by the course designer, but since it is only 1 or 2 stages it should be doable.
My opinion and mine alone
If your magazine or cylinder capacity is 6,7,8, 10, 15 or 20 plus and this is how you normally carry your weapon of choice, then this is how it should be used in the competition.
Don't allow walk thru's on every stage, everyone does 1 or 2 stages cold and slightly change the course of fire between shooters, to prevent anyone from tipping off another.
This would require the competitor to think and improvise, instead of choreographing it. Targets should be wearing clothing to conceal scoring zones and have props to help determine GG's from BG's or in addition to clothing to make the competitior think and determine if this is a GG or BG.
Tactical reload with or with out retention, should be up to the shooter and if you are in a cold stage, then you will not know if you need that ammunition and since you don't know what is up ahead, the question is do you continue with what ammunition is currently in the pistol and hope for another point to reload, dump the magazine and reload or retain and reload.
That would make it interesting, it would also require a fair bit of thought by the course designer, but since it is only 1 or 2 stages it should be doable.
My opinion and mine alone
I got a gripe... I hear IPSC is just "golf with guns" alot. The other day I realized to my chagrin that it isn't. Were it golf with guns there would be a hot chick driving a beer cart. I feel cheated.
Local IDPA bunch is good people. However, the org overall has issues. The requirement to join sours new shooters, occasional shooters, and other sport shooters. We encourage folks to join USPSA, but it sure isn't mandatory. No IDPA guy shooting a Wilson gun should call an IPSC guy a "gamer" for showing up with a STI and beating them soundly. Unless they are shooting what they carry with the clothes they carry in I don't want to hear how tactically delicious they are. I shoot IPSC with guns I carry, it is not my fault some of them hold 17+ rounds.
So in conclusion I say, ignore the weather, mud, bugs, gamers, blamers, gripers, whiners, and back pain. Stop trying to look for every little way to cheat up a stage. Just shut up and shoot.
Local IDPA bunch is good people. However, the org overall has issues. The requirement to join sours new shooters, occasional shooters, and other sport shooters. We encourage folks to join USPSA, but it sure isn't mandatory. No IDPA guy shooting a Wilson gun should call an IPSC guy a "gamer" for showing up with a STI and beating them soundly. Unless they are shooting what they carry with the clothes they carry in I don't want to hear how tactically delicious they are. I shoot IPSC with guns I carry, it is not my fault some of them hold 17+ rounds.
So in conclusion I say, ignore the weather, mud, bugs, gamers, blamers, gripers, whiners, and back pain. Stop trying to look for every little way to cheat up a stage. Just shut up and shoot.
faustulus
Member
What? Your club doesn't have a beer chick? Man do you need a better club.
It seems there are a lot of guys in IDPA who complain that someone is 'gaming' the game. I never understood that but... Of course these are the guys who usually wear the kydex holster that holds the gun three inches out from the body.
Most of the clubs I go back to are because there are shooters there who love to shoot, and don't care which game they are playing. Oh and the beer chick.
...Which, oddly enough, brings the thread full circle.
John L., who started this thread, helps run IDPA matches in Utah (like one at the FARM yesterday, six stages of IDPA fun in the sun and 65 degrees- it was niiiiice).
But the FARM is in the middle of Happy Valley (Provo area). No beer carts ANYWHERE in Happy Valley... In fact, as far as I can tell, NO BEER in Happy Valley.
Just as well, the prospect of some of these guys with a beer AND a gun is too much to contemplate...
Let's remember it's just a GAME. Everyone has their reasons for playing. Mine are summed up pretty well in this comment from my friend Ed Head in a recent conversation about this very subject...
I think competing, whether it is actually "practical" (whatever that means) or not, is valuable. At the very least you learn to handle stress, which leads to self control, which leads to being in control of your environment. At best, you learn to control your weapon under all circumstances and this results in the confidence to allow you to remain calm, in control, and master your environment and your emotions.
Sums it up pretty well, I think.
The bonus is I get to shoot and have fun with some friendly and talented people, like John L.
Wakal
Member
I've never seen a "beer girl" on the range, but the Swedish Bikini Team are some pretty tough IPSC shooters...I guess in IPSC, the girls shoot too
http://www.sportshooter.com/events/swedishbikinis.htm
Alex
http://www.sportshooter.com/events/swedishbikinis.htm
Alex
).mrming
Member
I just want to see a 3-gun zombie match.
Sunray
Member
Considering that if you need a handgun to defend yourself, you're already in deep, deep, do-do, they're both big kid games. Mind you, I've never understood this, you wouldn't carry a comped pistol for CWW stuff. Why not?
Games are supposed to be fun. That's why we call them games. If any course of fire isn't fun and challeging, you won't get shooters to come out and play. In any case, competitions are not, and never will be, training for real life situations. Real life has a habit of not having rules of engagement, major or minor calibres or a timer that tells you when to start shooting.
See if you can set up a 'Hogan's Alley'. No timers. No warning. Nada. Cost a fortune, I would think. Except that shooters are generally very creative people. So it's not a question of can it be done. It's a question of how it can be done? And figure out how a carbine, rifle or shotgun could be used for the same course of fire. That'd be just a range limitation. Any handgun would do.
Games are supposed to be fun. That's why we call them games. If any course of fire isn't fun and challeging, you won't get shooters to come out and play. In any case, competitions are not, and never will be, training for real life situations. Real life has a habit of not having rules of engagement, major or minor calibres or a timer that tells you when to start shooting.
See if you can set up a 'Hogan's Alley'. No timers. No warning. Nada. Cost a fortune, I would think. Except that shooters are generally very creative people. So it's not a question of can it be done. It's a question of how it can be done? And figure out how a carbine, rifle or shotgun could be used for the same course of fire. That'd be just a range limitation. Any handgun would do.
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