(Gun) nuts? A European's POV on the USA

[Elias]

I do not know how I managed to find this message board, but I am quite amused (not to mention horrified!) by the views of some people here..

Is every american as paranoid as you are?
Neither North Korea nor Iraq oppose threats to 'the free world', even though the countries are clearly run by egoistic madmen.
While Spain, UK and the US are crying out to its allies for help to wipe these countries off the face of the earth, the rest of the world (once again... 'the free world') is laughing at Blair + Bush.

Anyone seen the film "Wag the dog"?
This is truly one of the worst cover-ups ever taken place, and a feeble attempt at trying to get the american economy back on its feet (the US$ is cheaper than the Euro now...!).


Closing your eyes, putting cotton wool in your ears, and pretending anti-gun laws will not make a difference to the crime stats of your country is just plain stupid.
You are, to my knowledge, the only country in the world to allow anyone (just about, luckily) to carry a loaded/concealed gun in public.

While you lot are slowly killing yourself simply because you claim it is your constitutional right (we have a constitution in Sweden as well, you know , and it does not give us the right to bear arms. we don't have a problem with that).
There is no such thing as 'the perfect country' (I think... haven't been to the Netherlands yet, so I don't know for sure), but when people start avoiding going to the US (a western country!) on summer holidays out of fear of their own lives... wouldn't you say something is wrong then?

I am not entirely anti-guns, I wouldn't crucify you if it turned out you had a Thompson SMG on display in your home - but when you buy ammunition for it, carry it with you when you go shopping, let the neighbour's 7-year-old fire it... that's just disturbed, man!


So.. your opinions?
How many of you actually do this - carry a loaded gun? And if so, then why?
Do you really believe yourself to be so much better than any other country in the world?
Can you point out where Mongolia is on the world map (it is common knowledge among us eurotrash that the yanks don't know where the rest of the world is )

Illiterate hillbillies, do not bother with replying - I am looking for a serious discussion here, not the "God made man, and Sam Colt mad him equal" crap.

 

[atek3]

I too want the streets to be safe, but we have different sensibilities regarding crime and ways of dealing with it. Maybe if I lived in a country where crime wasn't a statistically significant problem, I wouldn't be so vociferous for my right to carry. However living in an area rife with crime, I believe guns in the hands (and holsters) of honest americans can make a world of difference. And the notion that more guns carried by honest people will make the streets more dangerous has been proved absolutely fallacious, given the work of Kleck and Kopel. Even if the streets were completely safe from small time thieves, I and millions of other americans like me would continue to own 'military-style' (aka reliable and effective) rifles. Why? Because the greatest dangers to a people are not small time theives, but the instead are pro's, aka evil governments. Pol Pot, Stalin, and Hitler, did NOT decimate an armed populous. They did so by seizing all the guns, registered using "sensible anti-crime gun laws."

>Is every american as paranoid as you are?

If paranoia means worry over our countries course of action, I certainly wished so. You paint with a pretty broad brush. Not all americans are pro-war. All my 'gun nut' friends and I are definatly anti-war. But not for the reasons sited by the socialists. I don't give a flying f*ck what the UN and the eurosocialists says. If a war is just (which few are) then it is just, despite what UN bureaucrats say. If a war is unjust then no amound of badgering from the UN should convince us to invade. I view the the reasons we should go to war against iraq as dumb for several reasons. If we should attack saddam because he is a dictator then we would have to go to war with half the planet. If we should attack because he mistreats his people, we should "liberate" about 2 billion people from oppresive rule. I dont' have time to explain the reasons. Goto
http://www.independent.org/tii/news/030228Gregory.html that article was written by one of my 'gun nut' friends.


>While you lot are slowly killing yourself simply because you claim >it is your constitutional right (we have a constitution in Sweden >as well, you know , and it does not give us the right to bear >arms. we don't have a problem with that).

You don't understand the constitution and bill of rights. the "right to bear arms" as we call it, is actually an insurance policy. The right to bear arms is a natural right, that can only be abrogated by governments. So the bill of rights merely explains that the government should not restrict that right. Also it acts as a mine-shaft canary, if the government isn't respecting the right to bear arms, it is probably not respecting any other rights either, until the burden gets so onerous the government is shaken off. You say that constitutions grant rights, I disagree.



>There is no such thing as 'the perfect country' (I think... haven't >been to the Netherlands yet, so I don't know for sure), but >when people start avoiding going to the US (a western >country!) on summer holidays out of fear of their own lives... >wouldn't you say something is wrong then?

I'd say their probably just a little ignorant. Just like in sweden i'm sure most parts are relatively crime free, but several cesspits like washington, DC, chicago, new york, and others bring the mean crime in the countries to relatively bad levels. However, when you break down murders by race it looks better. The odds of a white person such as yourself getting killed in America are probably similar to your odds of getting killed in most other western industrialized nations. However when you add in crimes commited by minorities (by large against other minorities) the numbers don't look so great.

>So.. your opinions?

I pity people who think rights are granted to them by governments.

>How many of you actually do this - carry a loaded gun? And if >so, then why?

I don't, I live an a disarmed-victim zone (California), where only criminals carry. And let me tell you how much safer I feel.

>Do you really believe yourself to be so much better than any >other country in the world?

I don't know, lately this bush-o-facism has got me looking into costa rica.

>Can you point out where Mongolia is on the world map?

Of course I can . When I was a nerdy 5th grader I won my school's geography bee. But seriously, why would ANY American or European need to know the exact location of mongolia. It's not like they are really active in the whole "international politics" or "international trade scene".

> (it is common knowledge among us eurotrash that the yanks >don't know where the rest of the world is )

[SARCASM] weew, I love country bashing, so intellectually challeging. Stoopid french, stoopid swedes [/SARCASM]


atek3

 

[atek3]

hey Oleg, back me up on this one, tell him how great the USSR was.

atek3

 

[hammer4nc]

Elias,

Welcome to the board!

Many here would like to learn more about swedish culture...which has a reputation for being open and friendly; as reflected in your post...

If nothing else, your subect matter covers a lot of ground! Yet, ignoring the inflammatory rhetoric, theres really not a lot in your post to respond to. Perhaps you could narrow the scope of your post somewhat, to stimulate a better debate...perhaps, make a positive statement about politics, guns, movies, etc. I see you have an interest in Thompson products?

Thanks again for taking the time to post, we're looking forward to many contributions in the future.

Regards.

Ps: Is it true that Hans Blix is from Sweden? Cool!

 

[geekWithA.45]

Yay!

I was wondering when the outraged Euro folks where gonna find this board....

Ah, just like the old days on TFL!

Elias: Welcome!

Some food for thought:

America isn't the bloodbath you seem to make it out to be. On any given Saturday night in a shall issue state, in any large 10 screen, 2000 seat movie theater, there are about 20 discretely armed citizens sitting peacefully with their families, watching a movie, munching their popcorn, and generally not making a big deal about their armed status. If it where the problem you'd imagine it to be, if bloodbaths at the theater was a common thing, no one would go to the movies, the mall, or the grocery store, and Hollywood would be out of business.

Hmmmm. Imagine that. Citizens going about their business, discretely armed. 80 million law abiding gunowners harmed no one yesterday. That same 80 million isn't gonna harm anyone today, or tomorrow either.

So what, exactly, is the problem?

The problem is people who don't abide in the law, who don't value their own lives, or the lives and wellbeing of anyone else. Such people exist, and can't be wished away. So the question becomes, if you're unfortunate enough to be confronted with such, what are you gonna do about it?

Surrender?

Well, perhaps, if there's no other option. Personally, I don't reward evil deeds with my compliance and actions. My life, my dignity, and my freedom, and those of my friends and family are all absolutely worth defending.

Run, if you can, fight, if you must.

Running/Escaping/Evading is a valid form of self defense, and is often preferred. It's never wise to expose oneself to more danger, and has as an added bonus of denying the bad guy the fruits of his evil labors.

Sometimes, escape isn't viable. Fighting is a last ditch defense. In these dire straights, if you're in the spot where your life is on the line, you'd better put up the best, most effective fight you can, because to FAIL is to risk DEATH, RAPE or DISMEMBERMENT. I think far too many good people, all over the globe, and across time have gone down because they simply didn't have a handgun, and the ability to use it. As for me, I choose NOT to be one of those people.


And by the way, walking around in public with an uncased Thompson is considered rude, and is both legally and socially discouraged.

 

[ChristopherG]

Elias,

There are a range of political views among American gun-owners; one that is seriously underrepresented by (what I perceive as) the conservative drum-beating and back-slapping that often passes for political discussion here. I am what most posters here would call a 'liberal'.

In terms of your assessment of America's International behavior, I agree. I find it appalling that GWB is trying, as he clearly is, to define the 'New World Order' as a time of flat out American Neo-Imperial bullying.

I carry a gun because I live in a society which, the way I understand the evidence, has more violent crime than yours--and I don't want to be unneccessarily victimized. For me, this is at least in part an extension of the fact that I like to shoot guns, at targets, recreationally, and competitively. I train to be proficient and safe with my guns, and take precautions to prevent my family and others from any accidents it could potentially cause. I carry a gun because there is at least some reasonable chance I might need it in self-defense or the defense of others; and because I am able and qualified to do so safely and responsibly. I would not argue that everyone, sans training and education, is so able; and so I would favor fairly stringent training and testing requirements for the exercise of the 'right' of concealed handgun carry.

Finally; no search for the perfect society is complete without seeing the Netherlands!

 

[ACP230]

My family is of Norwegian ancestry. My wife comes from Finnish stock, and we have had a few Swedish-Americans in the family too. (There goes the neighborhood, eh?)

It has been my conviction for a long time that the people who left Scandinavia and came to the US in the large wave of immigration after the US Civil War were the ones with sense and smarts. Some of the assertions in your post reinforce that.

I carry a gun because I am untimately responsible for my own safety and that of my wife and minor children. My son, 20, is on his own. He will be applying for a concealed carry permit this year when he turns 21.

Our courts have held that the government is not legally obligated to protect me from criminals, and the occasional dog or bear that might decide to chew on me. Even when the cops try to protect someone they can be less than efficient. The government does have responsibility for the national defense. I feel it is doing a better job there than some others do.

I start kids shooting air guns at six, .22s at eight or so, handguns or various calibers at 10. I don't let them shoot subguns until about 11.

I find it interesting that you define yourself as "eurotrash."

"If you don't like the song I'm singing, just grin and bear it
All I'm saying is, if the shoe fits wear it." Mose Allison.

 

[Salpalinja]

Can you point out where Mongolia is on the world map

Hei Elias, why don't you try this one, and remember, no cheats

Geography quiz

 

[Don Gwinn]

Illiterate hillbillies, do not bother with replying - I am looking for a serious discussion here, not the "God made man, and Sam Colt mad him equal" crap.

Right. If one of our members had posted a thread that began with "Smelly Eurotrash, don't bother replying--I'm looking for serious discussion, not a dissertation on Marxist dialectic or stinky cheese" I'd sit his sorry chickadee butt down with alarming alacrity. You agreed to the same set of rules when you joined.

"Boom boom, OUT GO THE LIGHTS!"

 

[Tom C.]

POV of the Eurotrash

If you want to find out about local crime, wait until you join the European Union and get unlimited imigration. London is now finding out what happens when you have excess imigration, little assimilation, and a disarmed population of sheep. London has far surpassed US cities in street crime. You probably don't want to talk about Moscow, which is a shooting gallery, or street crime in France from Moslums.