Gun serial number question

[jsalcedo]

Lets say there is an old pistol in a gunshop.
Lets use Luger for an example.
The gun is a beater but in decent mechanical condition.

The only problem with the pistol is the serial number is neatly ground off looks like it was taken off with a mill and there is a neat smooth groove where the serial numbers used to be.


This gun is obviously pre 1968 (before serial numbers were required.)

The gun is entered into the gun shops books.

I know you can buy guns that have no original serialization (old .22 rifles and such.) they just indicate no S/N on the 4473

Would it be wise to purchase this gun?

Would there be any legal problems with owning a gun that has had the serial number intentionally removed?

 

[Preacherman]

If the number has been intentionally removed, the gun is in violation of current law - it doesn't matter if it predates the requirement for serial numbers or not. Defacing a serial number is illegal, pure and simple. I'd have a quiet word with the pawnshop owner about this, as he'd be in legal trouble for selling it in that condition.

 

[joab]

Removing a serial number is illegal, a federal felony i believe.
If you are caught with the gun it will be presumed that you are the one who removed it
(I read that somewhere, please don't ask for proof or a link)

 

[Berek]

THE NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT, TITLE 26, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 53 INTERNAL REVENUE CODE
Subchapter C, Section 5861, Subsection h
It shall be unlawful for any person—

(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identifi-cation required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or

There's a nice pdf of this stuff at http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/index.htm

 

[jsalcedo]

Thanks for all the info.

Since I do a lot of business with this shop I'll inform the manager.

 

[Wiley]

Since I do a lot of business with this shop I'll inform the manager.

If an FFL dosen't already know what the folks just told you, I'm not sure I'd want to do any business with him.

Are you sure that a S/N was in the milled spot?

 

[jsalcedo]

Are you sure that a S/N was in the milled spot?

Yep I went and looked up a similar gun on gun broker.

The reason the FFL migt think it's ok is because the mill mark looks like it's part of the gun design.

 

[EOD Guy]

THE NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT, TITLE 26, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 53 INTERNAL REVENUE CODE
Subchapter C, Section 5861, Subsection h
It shall be unlawful for any person—

(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identifi-cation required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or

There's a nice pdf of this stuff at http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/index.htm

This does not apply in this case. A Luger is not considered a firearm under the National Firearms Act. It comes under the Gun Control Act. However there is a similar provision in the GCA that prohibits removal or alteration of a firearm serial number. It's codified in 27CFR 478.34. The reason I'm pointing this out is that it is important to reference the proper act when dealing with firearms. In many cases the definitions in the acts are very different.

Here is the excerpt from 27CFR.

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart C_Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

Sec. 478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.

No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate
or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or
manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or
possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or
manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has,
at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign
commerce.

 

[jsalcedo]

I just informed the gun shop and took them a photo of the same model gun from gun broker showing a serial number where the milled spot is.

The owner immediately pulled the gun, thanked me and told me it will probably be destroyed.

 

[Berek]

It's codified in 27CFR 478.34. The reason I'm pointing this out is that it is important to reference the proper act when dealing with firearms. In many cases the definitions in the acts are very different.

478.34 is only in effect with regards to importation or interstate transport.

Hmm. I guess I'll have to do more digging... We'll find it yet...

 

[Devonai]

I would check with the BATF and find out if you could have a new serial number engraved on it. It seems to me that once the new serial number is recorded in the FFL's books and on a 4473 that it would be perfectly legal to sell again.

Of course, it wouldn't surprise me if they're not that logical.

 

[EOD Guy]

478.34 is only in effect with regards to importation or interstate transport.

Hmm. I guess I'll have to do more digging... We'll find it yet...

478.34 is the correct reference. The firearm has been transported in interstate commerce. Section 478 covers the Gun Control Act and the Brady Act.

 

[Berek]

478.34 is the correct reference. The firearm has been transported in interstate commerce. Section 478 covers the Gun Control Act and the Brady Act.

I dunno... As there was no reference to when the s/n was removed... it's hard to say. If the s/n was there until after it entered his state, then it doesn't.

Oh well. We all know it's a no-no. The FFL should be the one worried about the act numbers and the ATF...

 

[EOD Guy]

I dunno... As there was no reference to when the s/n was removed... it's hard to say. If the s/n was there until after it entered his state, then it doesn't.

Oh well. We all know it's a no-no. The FFL should be the one worried about the act numbers and the ATF...

It doesn't matter when the serial number was removed. The regulation says "has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce."

That's the whole premise that the Congress uses to regulate firearms, and a lot of other things, for that matter.

You're right though that the FFL should be the one concerned. He seems to be taking the proper steps now.

 

[justashooter]

most states also have specific prohibitions on the possesion of a firearm that has evidence of a serial removal. pennsylvania does.

 

[k_dawg]

THE NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT, TITLE 26, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 53 INTERNAL REVENUE CODE
Subchapter C, Section 5861, Subsection h
It shall be unlawful for any person—

(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identifi-cation required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or

There's a nice pdf of this stuff at http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/index.htm

reading is key:

required by this chapter

IF this firearm is pre 1968, then this section does not apply.

 

[Kramer Krazy]

I just informed the gun shop and took them a photo of the same model gun from gun broker showing a serial number where the milled spot is.

The owner immediately pulled the gun, thanked me and told me it will probably be destroyed.

To prevent losing much money on it, tell him to strip the gun of all of its parts and turn in just the frame. It amazes me the number of times I've heard of people turning in complete firearms when only a component or two is illegal. There was a thread recently about an M1 carbine in a full-auto configuration ( http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=164926 ). You can see where he was talking about turning in a complete M1 carbine that could have had the offending full-auto parts, and he still could have retained a 100% legal-to-own firearm.

 

[jsalcedo]

To prevent losing much money on it, tell him to strip the gun of all of its parts and turn in just the frame.

I told them to do that.

Not sure if they will bother.