Gun Shop Stories

[dogtown tom]

To be fair, that is a bull*** question with no good answer for a lot of people.

If you read the instructionsin the 4473 you'll see the buyer can choose as many races as best describe them.

10a is even worse.

Why?
You are either Hispanic ethnicity or not Hispanic. Not that tough of a choice.

I'm a bit surprised actually that those haven't been challenged in court yet.

Challenged in court for what?
The constitutionality? It's the same Ethnicity and Race questions on all federal documents that require that type of answer.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/atf-form-4473-faqs

Q8: Why did ATF amend Form 4473, Firearms Transaction Record, to include information on race and ethnicity?
Form 4473 has included a question on race since it was established in 1968. ATF amended Form 4473 in 2001 to add ethnicity to the race question. In April 2012 to meet the requirements of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) regarding the format in which government forms ask about race and ethnicity the two questions were separated. OMB’s standards for race and ethnicity questions require agencies to ask both race and ethnicity in a specific manner.

OMB published guidance to agencies regarding the adoption of these standards in 2000, but permitted ATF to continue using its existing form until 2012, when it required ATF to make changes to the format of the questions during the standard Paperwork Reduction Act approval process. To comply with OMB guidance, question 10 on Form 4473 was divided into 10a (Ethnicity) and 10b (Race); they are not a new requirement that prospective firearms purchasers provide additional information regarding race or ethnicity.

Q9: Did previous versions of ATF Form 4473 include demographic questions?
Yes, per federal regulation, all previous versions of ATF Form 4473 have included demographic or identifying questions, including a question pertaining to race of prospective firearms purchasers. Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), section 478.124 (formerly 178.124), has required collection of information concerning the race and other identifying information of the transferee on Form 4473 since 1968.

Q10: Why is this demographic information needed?
Demographic information can be useful to law enforcement when tracing firearms used in crimes, to ensure the correct identification of an original purchaser and avoid misidentifications. Additionally, during background checks, this information is needed to facilitate proper identification by providing additional information that helps match -- or rule out a match -- between an individual and a potentially prohibiting record. See 28 CFR 25.7

Q11: What happens to the data provided on Form 4473?
Completed Forms 4473 are retained by the Federal firearms licensee (FFL). ATF does not, and never has, maintained an archive or other information repository on the race or ethnicity of firearm purchasers or licensees, and it has no intention to do so in the future. ATF may inspect individual Forms 4473 containing personally identifying information held by FFLs only for limited regulatory or law enforcement functions-specifically, during inspections, and in the course of investigations (for example, when tracing firearms linked to individual criminal investigations). Similarly, the FFL may use the demographic data to ensure proper identification or facilitate the background check process. There are some limited circumstances – for example when an FFL goes out of business – under which the Forms 4473 or information contained thereon is provided to ATF as required by statute. Even under these limited circumstances, ATF does not aggregate or centralize the demographic information contained on the form.

Q12: What authority does the federal government have to ask for such information on Form 4473?
Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.), section 923(g)(1)(A) provides authority for ATF to require such records, and 27 CFR § 478.124 implements that authority, including a requirement that the Form 4473 include information about the purchaser’s race.

Additionally, regulations at 28 CFR § 25.7 prescribe the search criteria used by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) and states: "The following search descriptors will be required in all queries of the system for purposes of a background check: (1) Name; (2) Sex; (3) Race; (4) Complete date of birth; and (5) State of residence." This information is needed to facilitate proper identification by providing additional information that helps match -- or rule out a match -- between an individual and a potentially prohibiting record.

Q13: What are the specific changes that occurred in 2012 to the ATF Form 4473?
To comply with OMB format standards, question 10 on Form 4473 was divided into 10a (Ethnicity) and 10b (Race); these questions are not new requirements. In addition, respondents may check multiple races (e.g., bi-racial, multi-racial) as opposed to just one in question 10b.

 

[Steel Hayes]

Right around Christmas time last year, I went to our local Field and Stream store.
I was walking through the ammo isles looking to see if they had any sales on .38 Special, the clerk walks over and asks me if I need any help, I say that I’m looking for .38spl wadcutters, the clerk turns to me and asks, “Do they even make those anymore”?
I abruptly walked out.

 

[Insignificant bill]

<----kitchen table dealer for eleven years.

Two years ago I had a guy purchase a gun online, choosing me for the transfer. The day it arrived I emailed him pickup info with a map to my house. He arrives, rings door bell and when I open door he is twenty odd feet back from the door, halfway to the street and continuing to back up......."Im afraid!" he says. "Of what? I ask. "I never bought a gun before!". The rest of the transfer went much easier.

A real estate agent was murdered in a city just to the north a few years ago, so quite a few real estate agents started buying guns. Lady had bought a gun from Buds, chose me for the transfer and when she came to pick up she called me to ask that I put my dogs in the back yard.... "I'm deathly afraid of dogs" I'm wondering how she knew I had dogs, but I woke them up, shooed them into the back yard and went to the front door.........no one there. She calls back "I can hear your dog barking at me".......I ask "where are you because you aren't at my house". Turned out she was seven houses away. But it gets better.........filling out the Form 4473 she gets to Question 10b and writes "India" and draws her own check box.....and puts an "x" inside.

Your dog is a sweetheart.

 

[Insignificant bill]

Bloomsburg has a new video about wanting to ban the ones that go uh uh uh uh uh bah bah.
Spent millions upon millions of dollars and he dont know the difference between Simi and full auto.

He doesn't want anyone other than the police and military to have firearms period.

 

[bearcreek]

If you read the instructionsin the 4473 you'll see the buyer can choose as many races as best describe them.

I'm well aware of that. The available options are largely nonsense, even if choosing multiples.

Why?
You are either Hispanic ethnicity or not Hispanic. Not that tough of a choice.

Really? It's not that tough of a choice but it's ridiculously simplified. That's like asking what kinds of guns there are in the US, S&W 5 shot revolvers or everything else that's not a S&W 5 shot revolver. Not that tough of a choice but a stupid, incomplete question nonetheless.

Challenged in court for what? The constitutionality?

For not being inclusive enough. Not saying it'd be a valid case, or that I think someone should, just that I'm a little surprised someone hasn't done it.

 

[dogtown tom]

I'm well aware of that. The available options are largely nonsense, even if choosing multiples.

Yet 99% of buyers have no issues. Instead of calling the available options nonsense.....tell us the better options.

Really? It's not that tough of a choice but it's ridiculously simplified. That's like asking what kinds of guns there are in the US, S&W 5 shot revolvers or everything else that's not a S&W 5 shot revolver. Not that tough of a choice but a stupid, incomplete question nonetheless.

It's stupid to you, but not to OMB who tells federal agencies and the Census Bureau how to standardize data collection.
As far as incomplete? Nope.

For not being inclusive enough. Not saying it'd be a valid case, or that I think someone should, just that I'm a little surprised someone hasn't done it.

This made me laugh........exactly who would not be included in the options available on a Form 4473?
Before you answer, you might want to investigate what each of those options includes.

 

[Nuclear]

To answer the question about if you are Hispanic or not, you need to know what the Feds consider Hispanic. Author Larry Correia is considered Hispanic by the Feds (because he is of Portuguese decent), but if you saw him walking into a gun store, there is no way you'd consider him Hispanic, and he himself doesn't.

But back to the OP's question, I can't remember the last time I heard something memorable in a gun shop.

 

[mrcabinet]

I stopped by a LGS that I don't frequent much the other day because they had a large assortment of firearms from a well known estate that they were selling on consignment (all way overpriced, as usual). There was a couple at the counter purchasing a J frame .357 for her first handgun. They asked about ammo, so the owner grabbed a box of WWB .38 and a box of Critical Defense .357. He then told the woman "Don't shoot the Hornady for practice - it will just scare the crap out of you".

 

[GEM]

The thread isn't about racial categories on the forms. Let that drop.

 

[Pelo801]

I heard a guy once asking if the shop had any 556 hollow points, cuz "he was just going plinking"

 

[hps1]

Another place, the owner and coworker smoked heavily in the small store, there was always a cloud and a funky smell in there. Good prices, good stock, and during the ammo shortage, he never overcharged, but you had to take a deep breath before entering and try and hold it as long as possible.

The owner also felt free to shout out his political views, which Attila the Hun might have found a little too far right wing.

Care to share the address?

Regards,
hps

 

[Speedo66]

Care to share the address?

Regards,
hps

PM sent.

 

[bearcreek]

My brother was told by a dude behind the counter at the local gun store that he should only carry sub-sonic ammo in his 9mm cause it "never over penetrated".

 

[bearcreek]

Not my story but "interesting" anyway.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I was told by a clerk that I couldn’t load Lehigh Extreme Penetrator bullets for use in a handgun because armor piercing ammo is illegal in handguns.

I don’t ask that guy anything anymore than how’s he doing.

 

[Mark1964]

Was at an LGS as a lady was seeking recommendations from the clerk for her first handgun.
Clerk presented and talked up the titanium S&W J-frame .38. She bought it.
My thought was "This isn't going to go well," but I said zilch. Nobody asked me anything, and it wasn't my job to pooch the guy's sale ... but I was sad to see it.

 

[AirForceShooter]

Was in a rather large store needing a few replacement magazines for my 1911.
Ask the guy where they are. He asks what make of gun. All 1911 magazines are different.

Buh Bye

AFS

 

[hps1]

Not my story but "interesting" anyway.

Unfortunately lots of police (and others) are careless in their firearms handling. He (and the clerk) NEVER bothered to check to see if the gun was loaded and worse yet, the officer swept others in the shop with the muzzle before shooting himself.

Regards,
hps

 

[FlSwampRat]

An actual example of a customer inquiring about what was needed to buy a gun. The conversation went like this:

Salesman: “Money, a relatively clean police record, a 5 day waiting period”

Him: “What do you mean clean police record?”

Salesman: “No felonies. They don't care if you spit on the sidewalk. Just no felonies.” (Misdemeanor domestic violence wasn't on the 4473 back then).

Him: “What's a felony?”

Salesman: “Obviously you did something and the list of what you did is a lot shorter than the list of what you might have done, why don't you tell me what you did, and save us time”

Him: “I shot a cop.”

By the way, for clarity sake, I was the salesman so I know it's not apocryphal.

 

[FlSwampRat]

He doesn't want anyone other than the police and military to have firearms period.

Wrong. His security people also.

 

[Terry G]

I was in a gun store, a small one, not a chain. I was buying some .45 and a nylon holster, The owner was trying to sell a customer a .45 Colt revolver. I heard him him say"that's it, the real deal, A Colt .45." The customer decided against the $700.00 price and left. Then, with my big mouth I said, "You know that's not a Colt." He instantly became irate and said "Sure it is. A Colt .45." I asked him to clear it and cock it for me. I could tell he didn't want to, but he did. Two clicks and the hammer was fully cocked. Two clicks does not spell COLT. The trigger guard was wrong the front sight was wrong and I spotted for a Spanish copy. I told him so ,and it got worse from there. I left without the ammunition and holster.

 

[entropy]

I have posted many over the years on here, from both sides of the counter.

Was in a rather large store needing a few replacement magazines for my 1911.
Ask the guy where they are. He asks what make of gun. All 1911 magazines are different.

Buh Bye

AFS

Officer's models are different length than Govt. Model, there are double stack 1911's made, so who's the dummy now?
I would have handed you a Para Warthog magazine if you thought all 1911 mags are the same.

OK, there's my newest one.

 

[SC45-70]

Was in Cabelas and noticed a young man looking to buy his first hand gun.
The salesman was trying to get this young man to buy a Desert Eagle 50AE.
SC45-70

 

[FlSwampRat]

Was in Cabelas and noticed a young man looking to buy his first hand gun.
The salesman was trying to get this young man to buy a Desert Eagle 50AE.
SC45-70

How to turn someone off from shooting sports right from the start.
Inexperienced or badly trained salesfolk often are enamored of one or another gun that they've read about and hype that gun to everyone who will listen I've noticed. It's the one thing I've had to retrain employees about most. They saw something in a magazine or online and they're convinced it is the best gun in the universe.
I try to teach those people that the best gun (camera, drill, anything) is the one that works for the person at the least price. A customer, happy about his great deal on his new purchase is going to come back and over time spend more money in our store than a fat profit on a one time sale that the customer isn't going to be happy with and therefore like our store less. Happy, satisfied customers come back.

 

[JTHunter]

About 17 years ago, my mother realized that my stepfather wasn't going to be able to help in an emergency situation due to his dementia and I started teaching her to do something her father had never been able to teach her - how to shoot. We quickly found that she couldn't pull the slide on my Astra .380 so we settled on revolvers only. In looking at various stores, we stopped at a small place in Southern Illinois called "Hick's". She found three revolvers she liked, one of which was used (an SP-101 in .38 Sp.) and they let her take it out behind the store to a small range they had there. (I was smart enough to NOT try and tell her how to shoot it there. That would come later.) The distance was about 10 yds. and with the first three shots she was able to put them in the 9 & 10 ring. With the last two shots, she got a pair of bulls. At this point, she turned to the gent showing her and said "I'll take it."
There is something to be said for turning your mother into a "pistol-packin' Mama" !!