Gun Shots and Hearing Damage

[scythefwd]

"Also, the term child abuse is a relative term"

Actually, it is a criminal offense in many jurisdictions. Tossing that term about can ruin peoples lives. To call not making your kid wear hearing protection "child abuse", especially in the wrong company, could end up with DCFS involved, the children taken into foster care temporarily, and possibly charges brought against the parents. "Child abuse" is causing harm to a child. The damage of letting someone shoot a high powered rifle once or twice will probably not show up on an audiogram 50 years later. Considering everything else that people do without the protection, I doubt the damage could be attributed to those two shots alone.

.38 special,
I do have hearing loss. I readily admit it, but I don't think that the damage I've done shooting a total of 10 rounds without proper protection is anywhere near a drop in the bucket compared to the damage I have done doing everything else. I always find it interesting how professionals in the audio field say "look at all the loss we have measured on you" but at the same time the people who work in factories (I am related to more than just a couple) are still perfectly functioning adults. My old mans ears ring, and it isn't from the little bit of shooting he has done without protection. It is from the 30 years of working in a machine shop for catapillar. My grandfather worked in a factory, and never had problems hearing... he was in his 80's when he died. Yes, there is hearing damage, but it isn't stopping them from living a full and happy life. I think people get too wrapped up in the charts to realize that a little hearing loss (or total) isn't going to be a disability to someone who is willing to live with the consequences of their actions. I could go deaf tomorrow, and other than sleeping better during the day because I can't hear my dogs going nuts and the simple shock of it, I would still be a fully productive member of society. I can read lips, I can read, and I can write. I can learn ASL if I have to. I would be "disabled", but I wouldn't be an invalid. Then again, I would miss my daughters first cry, etc....

 

[.38 Special]

I do have hearing loss.

If your score are 0 to +5 across the board, you don't have hearing loss. "Hearing loss" by most definitions requires thresholds of below 20 or 25 dB at at least two of the "key" frequencies: 500, 1000, and 2000 hertz.

I readily admit it, but I don't think that the damage I've done shooting a total of 10 rounds without proper protection is anywhere near a drop in the bucket compared to the damage I have done doing everything else.

How do you know this to be true?

I always find it interesting how professionals in the audio field say "look at all the loss we have measured on you" but at the same time the people who work in factories (I am related to more than just a couple) are still perfectly functioning adults.

I often find that people who hear well at lower frequencies and not so well in higher frequencies deny hearing loss. That is because some voices are lower frequencies than others, and also because you can at least partially overcome moderate high frequency loss by looking at people who are speaking to you, and minimizing background noise. So some voices really do come through just fine.

Again, one of the "standard" conversations in my office is -- husband: "I hear just fine except for mumblers and nagging women"; wife: "You only think you hear, but most of us have given up trying to talk to you".

A fun variation on the theme is -- husband: "I hear just fine!", son: "Yeah, get off his case!", daughter: "Are you both nuts???", wife: "They must be. Neither of us has had a normal conversation with him in a decade."

My old mans ears ring, and it isn't from the little bit of shooting he has done without protection. It is from the 30 years of working in a machine shop for catapillar.

How do you know that to be true?

My grandfather worked in a factory, and never had problems hearing... he was in his 80's when he died. Yes, there is hearing damage, but it isn't stopping them from living a full and happy life.

Another one I frequently come across: "I hear fine. I mean, yeah, I have a hearing loss, and my ears ring all the time, and people are annoyed when they try to talk to me, but it's not a problem." I know a fellow with no fingers and half a thumb, on his right hand. He's lived a full and happy life too -- but I'll bet he'd use the blade guard this time, if he had a second chance.

I think people get too wrapped up in the charts to realize that a little hearing loss (or total) isn't going to be a disability to someone who is willing to live with the consequences of their actions. I could go deaf tomorrow, and other than sleeping better during the day because I can't hear my dogs going nuts and the simple shock of it, I would still be a fully productive member of society. I can read lips, I can read, and I can write. I can learn ASL if I have to. I would be "disabled", but I wouldn't be an invalid. Then again, I would miss my daughters first cry, etc....

Sounds good to me, mate! As I've been saying right along, if young men were rational I'd have to find a different line of work!

 

[scythefwd]

.38,
I have ridden around in cars over 100 db for hours on end. I used to keep my music turned all the way up. I am betting that the hundreds of hours of that plus the constant 365 days of 24 hour drone of the generators that were so loud I had to really raise my voice to be heard over them did a lot of damage that will show down the road. The construction I did with hammer drills through 18 inch concrete walls, the sawsalls cutting through zinc plated cable trough under raised floors, the constant working in data centers with very loud air handlers...etc. will have a larger impact than 10 rounds did total. I know I don't hear as well as I used to, especially in very high frequency noises, but that doesn't mean that it is showing up very much on the tests.

About your question on how am I sure it was the factory noise that damaged my old mans ears.... have you ever been in a production factory ? You have to yell just to be heard... long term exposure to high volume noise, and very high frequency (he doesn't hear high frequency very well, but we all know this). He is still a functioning adult, and he admits the hearing loss...I never said they don't admit the loss of hearing, I say they are perfectly functioning adults.

My Grandfather didn't need to be spoken to in anything other than a normal tone by anyone but his wife (his daughters were fine, we think he was just ignoring grandma because she would nag him... which fitted with his personality). Even young girls would talk to him in normal or whispered tones and he never needed them to repeat.

 

[hso]

Industrial/Construction noise that requires you to raise your voice to be heard can cause threshold shifts in hearing (damage). Hobbies that have a lot of frequent noise exposure that require you to raise your voice (cart racing, car racing, bike racing, power tool use, bands, etc.) also can result in hearing loss. Shooting sports are one of the few hobbies that focus on protecting hearing. There's sound science behind that emphasis.

Make no mistake, in today's modern world there are few jobs outside of an office that don't have some risk of hearing loss and there are few hobbies, other than time in the wilderness, that don't have some risk as well.

Protect your hearing whenever the noise level is loud enough that you have to raise your voice to be heard and you'll have more hearing to loose as you get older.

 

[Justin]

So, because you've been in environments with loud, repetitive noise (work shops, car engines, loud music) then it's ok to go without wearing hearing protection when shooting a gun?

Granted, the long-term exposure to loud music may have caused more cumulative hearing damage than being exposed to ten shots from a rifle, but it doesn't change the fact that exposure to gunfire will cause irreversible hearing damage.

Frankly, it's idiotic that we're even having this discussion.

 

[chuckusaret]

Thank you for your service, sir. Care to post your most recent audiogram?

I have had one every year in the military, I was on flight status, one at least every year since I retired 32 years ago and I don't have a hearing loss any greater than the average loss for a person my age. Most people that do spend 20 years or more in the military do suffer a hearing loss and get a small disability. If I did have a hearing loss I would have been given a 10% disability by the VA. I have also taken both pre-employment and retirement audiograms by my last employer, The State Of Florida, and had normal hearing on both for a person my age...

 

[1911 Operator]

at the range, i always use the foam plugs in my ears, and 32NRR headfones over my ears. some might call this exessive, but my hearing is still perfect after 17 years of shooting

in a home defense situation, you need to hear noises in your house, obviously, to hear where the intruder is, so hearing protection isn't really suggested, unless you have one of those fancy expenssive electronic ear protection deals that lets safe noise through. i've heard those don't generally work as advertised though.

 

[Devilfrog]

While I was a machinegunner (M60E3) in the Marine Corps we typically did not wear hearing protection while training w/ blanks or when the bullets were going both ways. I have lost some hearing, more in the left ear than right and I deal with tinnitus (ringing in the ears) daily. I wear hearing protection whenever I shoot at the range and my hearing has not suffered any further since getting out of the Service. I have not met any former machinegunners that did not loose some hearing during their time in, kind of an occupational hazard.

 

[fatelk]

My grandfather was almost completely deaf when he passed away. He was in the army during WWII (though not in combat), hunted for many years, but most of all worked in a lumber mill for decades.

I'm very careful about hearing protection, myself. I've been told by too many people that you may not actually see the damage until years later. About ten years ago, I fired one round from a 4" .44 mag right next to a metal wall. I was in pain for a month in my right ear, and it still buzzes a little once in a while, from one shot.

On the other hand, a shot or two from a hunting rifle in an open field or mountain top I personally don't see as a real big deal. I sure wouldn't call it child abuse.

My pet peeve regarding child abuse, is parents who think they need to give their kids absolutely everything they want. They spend thousands of dollars on Christmas gifts. If the kid breaks a toy, they run out and buy another one. If a teacher gives their kid a bad grade, "That mean old teacher's just picking on my precious angel". When their kid grows up to be a disrespectful jerk who can't deal with the real world, they can't understand what went wrong. No, I wouldn't say overindulgence is child abuse, but it sure causes more lasting harm than taking your kid hunting without ear plugs.

FWIW, I always wear hearing protection, and my kids do too.

 

[Ala Dan]

I'm at 62 and counting, and have been shooting big bore handguns since
'bout 1968; often times without (did you hear me, WITHOUT ) any
type of hearing protection. My initial (first) large bore handgun happened
to be a 4" barrel Smith & Wesson model 57; and I did not think the loud
noise from this flame thrower bothered me very much~! Much too
my surprise, as I find myself gett'in much older; I am darn near deaf, and
have to ask persons to repeat what they say~!

I find that my 16" Colt H-BAR Match Target Competition 5.56 is a big
culprit of LOUD bangs; even when my ears are protected with foam ear
plugs, and electronic ear muffs.

Word to the wise: Don't be stupid, hearing damage is irreversible;
ALWAYS wear adequate protection for both ears and eyes~!

 

[Cosmoline]

I also take it very seriously, and often double up on hearing protection with both muffs and plugs. I have shot some rifles outside and one .357 indoors with no protection. The ringing on the magnum took a week to go away. My hearing has gradually gone from way better than normal as a child to just better than average now. But that's been 40 years of exposure to daily noise. I don't think the .22 LR's or even that one magnum blast really did much in the long run. It's the accumulation that seems to get you. From what I know about how ears get damaged, I'm actually more worried about frequent exposure to the sharp cracks that "get passed" your earplugs at the range every weekend than the rare episode of painful exposure.

However, I think there is a MAJOR psychological component to shooting and ear protection. The discharge of a high powered weapon indoors is painful at a very core level. Even if your hearing has not been damaged, your brain REMEMBERS that it hurt when you last broke the silence with the crack of doom. That may well be reflected by hesitation and flinching. The weapon becomes the enemy to your brain, like a firecracker in your hand. If throwing on some digital muffs that will erase the crack without harming your ability to hear the intruder is going to help avoid that, it's worth the investment.

 

[Skoghund]

Had my two yearly health check up with the company doctor. For 60 years old everything is in good working order apart from my hearing.
In the 60's i shot a lot of wood pigeons. Not unusual to shoot 200 shots a day with out hearing protection. Years of working in concrete repairs breaking concrete without hearing protection has left me a deaf old git.
I wear electric ear muffs for work and all my shooting be it down the range or hunting.
Not much chance of any one breaking into my house. But if they did would'nt be able to hear them any way.

 

[Lou McGopher]

People lose their hearing as they get old.

 

[scythefwd]

hso, justin,
Can you point out where I recommended that people shoot without protection? I can surely point out in this thread where I state that I will not shoot without protection or near people without protection.

To make my position clear, I do not recommend shooting without protection. I don't consider it child abuse to not force your child to shoot without protection though. I have shot without protection, but I no longer will do so. I will experience hearing loss due to my activities, but most of it will probably come from other hobbies, not shooting. I will not suffer hearing loss, I will experience it.

 

[.38 Special]

FWIW, it is absolutely possible to spend a lifetime exposed to noise and not suffer any real hearing loss. It's just that a lot of people think they're one of them, and few people actually are. The argument that "I know a guy who was exposed to noise and hears just fine, so it's safe to be exposed to noise" is akin to pointing out a guy who survived a gunshot wound to the head as evidence that it's safe to be shot in the head. IOW, a basic logical fallacy.

I do have to admit it saddens me to see the (thankfully rare) attitude of "Hearing loss is no big deal; I know I'll get it so who cares?". If folks with that opinion could only spend a few hours getting "counseled" by people who come into my office with "a jet plane in my ears" 24/7/365, people who have never heard the voices of their grandchildren, people who have "dropped out of life" because they cannot hear at church, or the movies, or the family gatherings...

I've been joking around on this thread, because I fully realize the futility of arguing this or anything else on the internet. But the idea that hearing loss is just another "experience" that won't cause any suffering is the sort of sadly uninformed nonsense that only a young man can come up with.

Everyone here has their minds made up, though. C'est la vie, I guess.

 

[.38 Special]

People lose their hearing as they get old.

Quite a bit of testing has been done on "primitive" populations where noise exposure is all but unheard of, so to speak. These tests universally show that "age related" hearing loss is mostly mythological. There are certain disease processes that show up primarily in the elderly, but as a general rule age is responsible for hearing loss only insofar as old folks have been exposed to noise longer than young folks.

The all-too-common "Normal hearing for my age" line is, then, a bit of a cop-out. Normal hearing is normal hearing, and old folks who had protected themselves from noise exposure would, for the most part, not have to come up with excuses for their hearing problems.

 

[1911 Operator]

have you ever noticed that lee ermey puts empty hadgun shells in his ears for hearing protection (on his history channel show "locked and loaded")?

it seems that this would provide little if any protection at all.

 

[scythefwd]

1911,
You notice how he also doesn't have an indoor voice??

 

[1911 Operator]

1911,
You notice how he also doesn't have an indoor voice??

lol yeah, the lack of hearing protection

 

[Yellowfin]

...All of this discussion because of one absurd law passed in 1934 curtailing the one effective hearing safety device that would be most effective in cutting down on HD hearing perils, range day damage, and hunting hurting. ONE simple safety device that thanks to that law is an expensive novelty only available in about 60% of states to less than 50% of the population and implemented on considerably less than 1% of firearms. Something that could reduce noise pollution and encourage safety and practice, and is an American made product that sells for hundreds of dollars each and employs machinists and other metal workers while American industry on the whole is starved for business of that kind. Disgraceful.

 

[1911 Operator]

...All of this discussion because of one absurd law passed in 1934 curtailing the one effective hearing safety device that would be most effective in cutting down on HD hearing perils, range day damage, and hunting hurting. ONE simple safety device that thanks to that law is an expensive novelty only available in about 60% of states to less than 50% of the population and implemented on considerably less than 1% of firearms. Something that could reduce noise pollution and encourage safety and practice, and is an American made product that sells for hundreds of dollars each and employs machinists and other metal workers while American industry on the whole is starved for business of that kind. Disgraceful.

yep, silencers. good point. i am in 100% agreement.

 

[PandaBearBG]

Everybody's hearing threshold is different, some can handle high volumes of noise with no long term ill effects, some people have weaker eardrums that are more prone to damage. Some people age and are still as sharp as ever and some people lose hearing at an early age. It's different for everyone so everyone has a different opinion or theory. So maybe 1 shot will do the damage to you or 100 shot will give you a headache for a month. The smartest things is to wear protection whenever around high volume or excessive noise, but in HD/invasion situation how you handle and act and who you are dictates your choice. Do you hole up and wait in your room with earmuffs on? Will you be able to hear the intruder coming to your door or opening the latch? Or are you going to search or investigate the noise? Is it better to not wear protection to better hear and find the intruder? Or muff up and hope your eyes will make up for the lack of your other sense? Everyone has different priorities and techniques, but for me, in a HD situation I'd like every advantage I can get and that includes ALL of my 5 senses. Shooting indoors at a range or some other controlled excercise w/o ear protection is stupid and protection should be worn if you got it. Shooting inside a small range next to a metal wall that will intensify the sound w/o ear protection? That's just a bad idea.

Although good arguements pointed out on each side, the original post was about would you wear ear protection in a HD situation. For me, No.

 

[Dave B]

I've always heard that if you do something loud enough to make your ears ring, you have done some, even if small, permanent damage to your hearing. As I type this, I am listening to my ears ringing. I seem to hear just fine, but if I think about it, the ringing is there.

 

[JohnKSa]

Do you hole up and wait in your room with earmuffs on? Will you be able to hear the intruder coming to your door or opening the latch? Or are you going to search or investigate the noise? Is it better to not wear protection to better hear and find the intruder? Or muff up and hope your eyes will make up for the lack of your other sense?

How is it that we have so many people on this forum who apparently haven't heard of electronic hearing protection????

Good electronic hearing protection will actually enhance your hearing, it will help you locate the noise and augment your senses.

 

[1911 Operator]

most people have some degree of ringing in the ears. for whatever reason too, damage from ear infections, loud noises, fluid in the ears......