guns in church

[csmkersh]

lookn4varmints, the only person who's been antagonistic has been macadore with his deliberately offensive style. I suggest, as others have, if he doesn't like what is said in this thread, go else where - quickly.
​

 

[CalebJns]

This is sorda on the same line/idea...I was in Honduras & Nicaraugua on a mission trip a few years back, we were heading from Honduras up to a church close to the border of Nicaragua (where they were having some "conflicts" between the two countries)...my now Father-in-law was the National Group Leader we were traveling with, I rode with him in his personal truck, and we made a stop by the local "Police Station"...out walk 6 Special Forces "Black Cobras" I think they were called, with their AK's and AR's. Climbed in the back of the truck, and made the trip with us to a church service...while we were in the service, they patroled the area "on guard". Talk about Gun Carry at Church. Also these men were a special group that came and trained with our special forces, I spoke with one of them, inquired about the amount of ammo they had...Magazine in weapon, with two additional magazines on their person, and a side arm (can't remember what kind they had at the time). Their response was simply, ...we don't expect there to be any problems, but if so, we are trained to maximize our ammunition...one shot, one kill...Needless to say I was impressed. And of course there was not any issues, but we felt safe knowing they were there!

 

[macadore]

lookn4varmints, the only person who's been antagonistic has been macadore with his deliberately offensive style. I suggest, as others have, if he doesn't like what is said in this thread, go else where - quickly.

I have been somewhat more polite than the people who have attacked me. If you do not want an answer you might not like, then don’t ask it in a public forum. As I said, if you want consensus, go preach to the choir. As for telling me to go somewhere else, that is arrogant and presumptive. Out of respect for the moderators, I have been overly gentle in this discussion. However, you will not shout me down.

 

[zxcvbob]

How about The Sermon on the Mount?

You mean where Jesus said "Blessed are the Peacemakers"?

 

[csmkersh]

Quote:
Originally Posted by macadore
How about The Sermon on the Mount?

You mean where Jesus said "Blessed are the Peacemakers"?

Yeah, but he didn't specify the caliber. Make mine .45 Colt.
​

 

[jon_in_wv]

If I wanted to hear this bs, I would go sit in the choir. I wish the rest of you would leave it in the choir.

I should have not said "Moron" I should have simply pointed out the hypocrisy. Which it is.

Its not vanity to assume you don't know what you are talking about when people are debating the word of God and you refer to is as BS. If you have a SPECIFIC complaint about the content of the conversation than challenge it rather then going to the Church and then complaining about being preached to. Throwing cute little catch phrases around doesn't enforce your point. Most people here are knowledgeable, faithful people and don't deserve to be attacked for their beliefs by someone who apparently doesn't want to read it?? That is true hypocrisy.

Other forums have an ignore function I wonder why this one doesn't?

Never mind, found it.

 

[jon_in_wv]

No one answered my question earlier. Whats the difference between carrying OUTSIDE of the church or INSIDE of it?? The CHURCH was established by Christ, I believe I am in the "Church" by being a Christian, or any time I am in the presence of my brothers and sisters in Christ. The building we meet in is just that, a building. The fact you are inside the building doesn't change the morality of anything I do. If its wrong, its wrong. I feel the Bible does support by right to defend myself. Christs disciples had swords, that is a fact, if they were wrong for that Christ would have told them to get rid of them. Many, many times in the Bible God's people killed to defend themselves or their land. Many times this was commanded by God.

Quoting phrases in the the Bible can be tricky if you take them from context or you don't understand the history behind the phrases. The ANTIs would say the Bible commands us to stone fornicators or homosexuals. Its there lack of knowledge and history that leads them astray. Discussion is a great way to learn. I don't care how many times this thread is done as long as people are looking for answers.

 

[pyle]

To Jon in wv:

I totally agree with everything you're saying - no need to post much more from me at this point..

Your totally right on when you talk about being in the Body of Christ vs being in a "church building". As Christians - we walk there everywhere and all the time (in the Body of Christ) and meeting in a "building" is not what defines a Christian. Carrying in that "building" vs carrying anywhere else in NO different. Perhaps the title of the thread should have been "Carrying in a 'Church Building'"?

 

[The Annoyed Man]

My own views have shifted over the past couple of years. I was never against the general idea of carrying in church, but I didn't know if carrying in church was for me. I even made a statement to that effect on this board a year or so ago. My perception at the time was that it was a "trusting in God" thing. Also, I mistakenly believed that my church had a 30.06 posted. It turns out I was wrong about that. What they don't permit is concealed (or open) carry by people who are attending an appointment with the church's marriage/family counselor.

A lot has changed since back then. I finally obtained my Texas CHL about 4 months ago. At first, I used to leave my gun in the car. Then I started carrying into church and got used to that. The problem for me since then has been purely one of practicality. I am a guitar player, and I frequently play with the church's worship band. When I'm not playing in the main services, I am often performing with bands for the children's services or the Celebrate Recovery services. It was difficult for me to get all wired up and plugged in and conceal a weapon on my person while on stage, so I still usually left my weapon in the car when I was performing. I recently bought a 642 Airweight and a Desantis pocket holster, and that has solved that particular problem, so I now carry in church all the time.

I know of one other person at my church, also a musician, who has a CHL and who carries all the time (a little Keltec .32). But aside from him, I don't really know who else carries, if anybody at all. However, the church has about 1200 members, so it seems entirely possible that there are others. I also don't know for sure how my pastor or the rest of the pastoral team feel about it, although I have no reason to suspect that they would be against it. Since they have specified a rule against being armed at counseling sessions, it seems implicit in that rule that the rest of the time they take no position on it.

I think that carrying in church requires a process of spiritual maturation for the individual believer. I became a gun owner for the first time in 1990 when I inherited by dad's 1911 after his death. I was soon hooked on firearms and shooting. I became a born-again Christian in 1994 and became hooked on Jesus. There was a point kind of early on in my Christian walk where I questioned (to myself) whether or not keeping a gun for home defense was a failure to trust in God's protection for me and my family. I spent a lot of time in thought and prayer about it, and here's what I came up with: God always acts miraculously with regard to us. Whether that means a miracle in the traditional "turning water into wine" sense, or a miracle through the educated mind and trained hands of a good surgeon healing a sick person, it is all miraculous. Sometimes God acts directly. Other times, He acts through the agency of a human whom he sends to perform that miracle - even if that human doesn't recognize his own actions as a miraculous intervention. Sometimes God intervenes directly on our behalf when we are threatened, just as he did when he caused the Red Sea to swallow Pharaoh's army as it pursued fleeing Israel. Other times He acts through the providential arrival of armed help, or through enabling us to be individually armed and prepared to defend ourselves.

So I eventually realized that there may come a day when the Lord calls on me to be the agent of that protection for me or my loved ones, and I should be prepared for that possibility - all while praying that I never have to confront it. That is how I came to be comfortable with carrying in church.

Sorry for the long-winded post.

 

[JR1]

Another Pastor checking in here and adding that I agree with the overall sentiment of this thread.

Legally, here in AR, you are not allowed to carry in church services. While I would not condone breaking the law, I also know that there are those in my congregation that carry each and every week. Frankly, I feel safer for it. There are some weird loopholes in our laws, and one allows me, as pastor, to carry during the work week and such. I take full advantage of that.

 

[kk5ib]

Arkansas church carry

As the previous posted declared, carry in church is illegal, even with a CHL. We are considering some of us taking training to be licensed armed security guards, costs about $150 per person, and then being hired by the church as such. I really can't see doing something that is definitely illegal and losing my CHL over it.
Darryl

 

[jon_in_wv]

I believe God's protection of my and my family is more spiritual that physical. I have faith in God does that mean I won't have a car accident? Or get a cold? No I don't think so.

I can see the logistical issue. We have a very strong fellowship in our Church and hugs are a normal part of the greeting. I usually pocket carry my Ruger LCP while attending Church. I've run into other Church members outside of Church who gave me a hug and put their hand right on my weapon. They never said a word. I don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable so I carry the LCP with two spare mags when I attend Church. Most of the elders are gun lovers and I seriously doubt anyone would ahve a problem if I carry my M&P either.

Oh, I just thought of this....Do you guys where a seat belt??? Or get a flu shot?? Store food or water for emergencies??? Does this show a lack of faith?? The Bible say that a wise man will have stores of food and oil while a fool will eat all that he has. Prepare for you know not the time or the place. I think all of these types of things are a sign of wisdom, to ignore your own needs and protection and blindly rely on God to do it for you is foolishness. Its not about faith. If I have total faith, can I jump off a cliff and not get hurt?? Satan tried to test Jesus like that. Jesus told him that we shall not test our Lord. I also believe that the power of God is not for us to call upon whenever we see fit. It is HIS to use. God gave men good and evil the right to choose our fate. He does guide our lives as a loving Father but if we perish it is OUR fault. He has given us the tools to have everlasting life. That life is not physical, but spiritual. I believe this is the protection that he has given us. Protection of our mortal form is our responsibility and a wise man will take that responsibility seriously.

 

[pyle]

Oh, I just thought of this....Do you guys where a seat belt??? Or get a flu shot?? Store food or water for emergencies??? Does this show a lack of faith?? The Bible say that a wise man will have stores of food and oil while a fool will eat all that he has. Prepare for you know not the time or the place. I think all of these types of things are a sign of wisdom, to ignore your own needs and protection and blindly rely on God to do it for you is foolishness. Its not about faith. If I have total faith, can I jump off a cliff and not get hurt?? Satan tried to test Jesus like that. Jesus told him that we shall not test our Lord. I also believe that the power of God is not for us to call upon whenever we see fit. It is HIS to use. God gave men good and evil the right to choose our fate. He does guide our lives as a loving Father but if we perish it is OUR fault. He has given us the tools to have everlasting life. That life is not physical, but spiritual. I believe this is the protection that he has given us. Protection of our mortal form is our responsibility and a wise man will take that responsibility seriously.

I agree completely. Although I do believe there are times when He steps in and helps us out with physical protection as well.

Adding to your list:

Take precautions when there is a tornado warning?

Go inside in a lightning storm?

Go to the doctor?

Look both ways before you cross the street?

Slam on your brakes if a car pulls out in front of you?

etc, etc, etc, etc.......

 

[lookn4varmints]

I agree completely. Although I do believe there are times when He steps in and helps us out with physical protection as well.

Adding to your list:

Take precautions when there is a tornado warning?

Go inside in a lightning storm?

Go to the doctor?

Look both ways before you cross the street?

Slam on your brakes if a car pulls out in front of you?

etc, etc, etc, etc.......

Keeping toilet paper in your hunting pack?
Quickly changing the channel when Oprah and Dr. Phil come on?
Averting your eyes when Hillary's picture appears on a webpage?

......It's all about protecting your vitals!

 

[The Annoyed Man]

i think courtrooms, delivery rooms, schools and churches
are places where guns should be banned.

Go sell that to both the guy who entered the Colorado Springs church with murder on his mind, and to the brave woman who put a stop to him.

There was a bad guy who walked into a Fort Worth church on a Wednesday night & went from class room to room shooting sheeple 7 or 8 years ago.

Those were real, live human beings, not sheeple. In this picture which AJM posted on page 3, I count at least one unarmed man. He was a sheeple? Were any of those "sheeple" in Forth Worth innocent children? That term gets bandied about a little too liberally, IMHO.

it´s not about getting rid of school-, church and delivery-room shootings.
It´s about keeping some culture and civilization.

It is not a matter of law, it´s a matter of culture IMHO.

Is it your point that the carrying of a firearm is uncultured and barbaric? If that is not your meaning, then how can CCW in church be harmful to the culture? If it is your meaning, then it applies at all times and you believe that CCW is at all times disreputable... ...an odd position for someone who names himself "Mp7." It kind of reminds me of performing "Nearer my Lord to Thee" on the violin while the ship is sinking underneath you and there is still room on the lifeboats.

It is hypocritical to believe you will go to Heaven when you die and be willing to kill someone to keep from dying.

Then you have not read your Bible all the way through. The Old Testament specifically forbids murder and it also distinguishes specifically between that which is "murder" and that which is justifiable or accidental homicide; and it also specifically defines in what kinds of instances a homicide is justifiable and needs no forgiveness, and in what kinds of instances a homicide is accidental or negligent and is therefore forgivable. (Do a study on all the facets of "Jubilee" as it pertained to ancient Hebrew society.) You ought not lecture others about cutting and pasting the Bible when you appear to be guilty of the same. Jesus himself said that he did not come to abolish the law, but to complete it.

Furthermore, implicit in Christian doctrine is that Jesus IS God; and that God's abilities are unlimited and are not constrained by man. To take the position that a killing is not forgivable, when God's Word says that it is forgivable, is to also assert a man-made limitation upon God's capacity to forgive. If you are yourself a Christian, then it becomes problematic for you to set such limitations on God's abilities. OTH, if you are not yourself a Christian, then it is entirely understandable how you could have an incomplete understanding of scripture, and misunderstand Christian doctrine with regard to the infinite nature of God, and with regard Jesus' capacity to forgive.

BTW, I have no idea whether you are or are not a Christian believer. I only know that you seem to be confused about the Biblical definitions of murder vs. killing, and about God's capacity to forgive. BTW, I am only referencing Christianity specifically because I am not enough of a student of Judaism to speak with any kind of authority to it. That being said, it would seem reasonable to me that most Jews and Christians hold the same belief with regard to the OT definitions of murder and homicide. David fornicated with Bathsheeba and murdered her husband, and God still called him "a man after my own heart" and eventually brought about His own incarnation in the form of Jesus Christ through David's lineage. Obviously, God thought David's life was redeemable.

I realize that my theological argument does not specifically address church carry, but it is peripheral to the discussion as it pertains to the possibility of having to use one's weapon while attending church services, since the reason we carry a weapon in the first place is against the possibility of needing one and not having one, and the possibility that our use of same might be fatal to the bad guy.

Sorry if this post hijacks the thread.

 

[pyle]

Averting your eyes when Hillary's picture appears on a webpage?

If I don't do this - I begin to feel sick - not kidding. I also have to change the channel if I happen to hear her talk.

 

[Prince Yamato]

I go to church in Texas. Church is God's house. God has not directly asked me to leave my weapons in my car or take them off of his private property, nor did he post a 30.06 or 51% sign on the door. Therefore, I will carry in God's house.

 

[fjolnirsson]

Withdrawn.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I work with criminals for a living for the last 16 years. One thing I know for sure is that the rules, gun free zones, bans, whatever...have no weight with these people. The teachings of Christ have no bearing on their behavior. They act like animals. Doing what they want, taking what they desire, only your strength and ability to defend what you have is a deterrent to them.

 

[zxcvbob]

It kind of reminds me of performing "Nearer my Lord to Thee" on the violin while the ship is sinking underneath you and there is still room on the lifeboats.

It's more dramatic that way.

 

[jon_in_wv]

If God could give the gift of playing the violin at that moment but not the wisdom to get on the lifeboat, maybe he is telling me something!

 

[Treo]

Whatever Isn't Of Faith Is Sin

The Bible says that Whatever isn't of faith is sin , the Bible also promises that God didn't give me a Spirit (demonic) of fear but of Power , & Love & of a Sound mind.

If I carry in church because of fear, or because I don't think God can get the Job done ( really one & the same reason) It is a sin for me to carry in church, end of disscussion. If while I'm walking in that Love & a Sound mind that God promised me ( If anybody's gonna carry in church you'd want to be the quy W/ the sound mind right?) I am obedient to what I honestly believe God asked me to do ( this is confirmed by the fact that my Pastor is aware that I carry & never asked me not to) I'm good, I'm right in the middle of God for my life & God will be my shield, my fortress & my deliver. not some gun that I happen to be carrying.

I mean let's be realistic I carry a CZ RAMI in church, me taking out a BG wearing body armor and carrying an AR , would be like, I don't know a teen age sheppard taking out a 9ft tall Giant armed W/ a spear a sword & a shield W/ a slingshot. Never happen .

 

[The Annoyed Man]

If I carry in church because of fear, or because I don't think God can get the Job done ( really one & the same reason) It is a sin for me to carry in church, end of disscussion. If while I'm walking in that Love & a Sound mind that God promised me ( If anybody's gonna carry in church you'd want to be the quy W/ the sound mind right?) I am obedient to what I honestly believe God asked me to do ( this is confirmed by the fact that my Pastor is aware that I carry & never asked me not to) I'm good, I'm right in the middle of God for my life & God will be my shield, my fortress & my deliver. not some gun that I happen to be carrying.

I think you've described better than I did the idea of putting my faith in God's provision, and then also being ready to be the one He calls on for that provision, if that is what He wills - which by the way extends to being ready to be called on by God for a whole lot more than just being an intercessor with a gun.

 

[ruger_dude]

My pastor and the youth pastor both carry. A number of ushers(including me) carry . And normaly theres at least one on duty cop inside with his family with an ear piece connected to his radio.

 

[CalebJns]

This is possibly the greatest thread on this forum!!!! I am loving it! A lot of you guys have great ideas, and for the most part, seem to all be saying the same thing. As well as bringing many different points of views...as I have stated previously, it boils down to a personal choice/preference. I don't think it is a sin to/not to CC in church...unless you are in AR where it is "Illegal" to CC in church. We are to obey the laws of those over us, unless the laws specifically God against the nature of God!