Guns vs. Knives

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Fish Springs

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Tonight my daughter's martial arts instructor was telling me how with a knife he could kill me before I could bring a gun on target and terminate the threat--offering that from 21 feet, I could not draw and fire fast enough to stop him.

I am able to draw and put two shot on target in under 1.25 seconds--1 on a good day.

What is your experience/thinking on this?
 
If he's just standing 21 feet away, and you're just waiting for him to make a move, then I'd say you have a pretty good chance of hitting him before he hits you. But if you suddenly become aware of someone who is 21 feet away charging at you full speed, it might be a close call.
 
Also note, there is no official rule of real life whereby you have to stand in one place and play some kind of duel-like game if you ever see someone coming to knife you.

Your feet probably work as well as his.
 
Fish Springs said:
Tonight my daughter's martial arts instructor was telling me how with a knife he could kill me before I could bring a gun on target and terminate the threat--offering that from 21 feet, I could not draw and fire fast enough to stop him.

I am able to draw and put two shot on target in under 1.25 seconds--1 on a good day.

What is your experience/thinking on this?

21 feet is considered to be the lethal "safe radius" regarding someone with a short bladed weapon by law enforcement training standards. That was come to be having a person with a rubber knife attack a person with a holstered pistol and seeing how fast they could draw and shoot. Reality is if you shoot them at a hundred feet they might still come up and kill you, or if you're Wyatt Earp you might be able to gun them down at ten feet.

Long story short, if you're carrying a weapon just for the fun of killing another person at very close range, a large knife may be just as good or better than a gun. See Jim Bowie's quotes. Fortunately, most American gun packers are carrying for defense rather than offense.

Ask your daughter's martial arts instructor how well his knife might protect him if you decide to kill him with your pistol at 50 feet.
 
So what? Is this supposed to be some real life indication of defensive ability? Shoot him from 30 feet. Or 75. who cares? I am not sure why this sort of contrived situation comes up. Is it to indicate that a gun is useless? Or that you are better off with a blade? If someone is so switched off they have no idea trouble is around till the BG gets within 20 feet, why yes, they do have a problem, a problem no tool or technique is going to solve.
 
Did you ever hear about the Tueller Drill?

Look here. http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

FYI, Two shots on target does not automaticlly equal - Threat stopped.

If you have good skills you should be able to draw and fire in time. The question is whether or not you are getting cut. Plenty of Perps have sucked up multiple COM rounds and kept going long enough to due great damage.
 
It's an old argument, and like any other discipline, it's the man not the metal.

I have some associates that shoot a lot of IPSC. They are capable of putting two well aimed shots into a torso target before a potential aggressor could literally take his first step.

Then again, if you're walking around in 'condition white,' nothing could save you.

I target shoot, and I sharpen knives for a living.

I'd rather have a USP stoked with .40 SW Golden Sabers.

If that was not possible, I'd like the opportunity to put a razor-mirror edge on one of my S30V Striders, get some good gym shoes, a shot of albuterol from my asthma inhaler and a decent head start...
 
Fish Springs said:
Tonight my daughter's martial arts instructor was telling me how with a knife he could kill me before I could bring a gun on target and terminate the threat--offering that from 21 feet, I could not draw and fire fast enough to stop him.

I am able to draw and put two shot on target in under 1.25 seconds--1 on a good day.

What is your experience/thinking on this?


My thinking is that unless you are some sort of super-SEAL, I very much am skeptical of your claim that you can draw, and fire two shots, in under 1.25 seconds. I am thinking of a typical CCW scenario in which your handgun would have to be concealed prior to your draw.

Maybe it's just me, projecting, because I have no reason to believe I could draw my handgun anywhere near that quickly. (Instead, I rely more heavily on situational awareness and staying ahead of potential threats.)


-flier
 
I have seen someone cover that distance in a heartbeat and have no doubt somebody quick could get to you and be within an area where he could parry or defeat your gun and knife you. Remember a knife, especially a decent sized one does massive damage.

Also think about the fact that just because you pop a round or two into somebody doesn't mean they will stop. Most handgun stops are psychological/pain induced stops. The person stops because he has been conditioned by movies or whatever that he has been shot and is going to die or is mortally wounded etc. A motivated threat may just come up and kill you with his knife before he has the common decency to drop himself. Unless you get a good solid CNS/SPINE hit I would be moving and shooting.
 
"Shoot him from 30 feet. Or 75. who cares? I am not sure why this sort of contrived situation comes up."

Sir,
It is a training scenario, all of which are contrived. You may not perceive/identify a threat from a safe distance, so one trains for the worst case, which can easily be from the horizon to "I can see boogers in this crazy bastard's nose," close. None of that means such a scenario can happen or is likely, just to say "what if," and how do I react?
SatCong
 
The Tourist said:
It's an old argument, and like any other discipline, it's the man not the metal.

I have some associates that shoot a lot of IPSC. They are capable of putting two well aimed shots into a torso target before a potential aggressor could literally take his first step.

Yes and depending upon what chemical enhancements may be in the system of said "potential aggressor" those two shots may be the equivenent of mosquito bites.
 
Azure,
You might be pleasantly surprised by your reaction time. Find someone with a timer and go to the range. I think given a competence level that is adequate, your splits will be a lot quiker than you think. If on the slight chance I am wrong it gives you an idea of what the evolution should be like. BTW, +1 on situational awareness.
SatCong
 
SatKong said:
BTW, +1 on situational awareness.
SatCong


Thanks. I owe that to my dad, who trained me to look around and scan like a pilot. Now I do it everywhere I go. :)


-flier
 
azureflier said:
My thinking is that unless you are some sort of super-SEAL, I very much am skeptical of your claim that you can draw, and fire two shots, in under 1.25 seconds. I am thinking of a typical CCW scenario in which your handgun would have to be concealed prior to your draw.
-flier

Two shots on target from holster 1.25 seconds. Done on a routine basis buy students of Chuck Taylor's ASAA Defensive handgun classes.
 
Get a water pistol and have him try with a rubber knife.

(I guess the best answer to this hypothetical exercise is to carry a gun, a big knife, and know martial arts too- yay!)

.
 
Fish Springs said:
Tonight my daughter's martial arts instructor was telling me how with a knife he could kill me before I could bring a gun on target and terminate the threat--offering that from 21 feet, I could not draw and fire fast enough to stop him.

I am able to draw and put two shot on target in under 1.25 seconds--1 on a good day.

What is your experience/thinking on this?

As someone who also has extensive martial arts experience, I am always really wary when instructors begin down this road. Just as with firearms, those that love to sit and talk about who, what, and how easily they can kill someone/something tend to be the kind of people that you want to steer clear of.

That said, whether his answer is correct or pure bs depends upon the particulars of the situation. If person A has a knife and approaches an otherwise unknowing person B then sure it could happen. However, if person B has acknowledged the threat and is ready before person A begins to close the distance then the situation is wholly different.

In my unsubstantiated opinion, the best that a knife attacker could hope for by attacking someone who is both carying and aware of the threat is inflicting a moderate knife wound before they ended up dead. I would argue this would be the case for someone with an average ability with firearms.

Why? Well, in this kind of situation accuracy isn't going to play a huge factor. 21 feet in of itself isn't a huge distance, and by decreasing the distance between the shooter and himself, all the knife attacker is doing is increasing the "point and click" factor to where rapid follow-up shots are less likely to miss their mark. If you take a proficient shooter, especially someone well versed in tactics and drills, then the chances of any injury become even more remote.

This isn't to say that the shooter will come out unscathed. Quite the contrary, factors such as shot placement, type of handgun, the particular attacker and any substance that he may be on, will all take a hand in whatever outcome occurs. That said however, the dude with the knife starts with a severe disadvantage.

For what its worth, as someone who considers themselves proficient in both shooting and knife handling, there is nobody on this planet that could convince me to carry a knife in lieu of a handgun for personal defense (both is my preference).

Sorry for the long response, but it has always bewildered me when martial artists stick their noses up at firearms, and surprisingly it happens quite often. Martial arts and knives certianly have a place, but not as an offensive measure. The are defensive, and almost a sort of last resort. To refuse a better method of protection is just simply stupid in my opinion.
 
Perhaps ask him/her the question, "Exactly HOW MANY PEOPLE who were armed with firearms have you killed in this way?" If the answer is zero, then it is just theory and/or hearsay. I'll assume that neither you nor I have had to use our pistols in this way either.

(Not disputing that attackers have taken multiple hits, etc., but rather questioning whether this instructor has actual personal experience as a participant. Sounds like an @$$hole with a really cocky attitude that a REAL master would open a can of whup-@$$ on.)

As to your draw, that's pretty darn fast. I've timed out at 1.52 seconds for two shots from concealment (IWB under an open coat), but that's in competition where you're just waiting for the buzzer. Real life requires you to recognize and assess threats, often in situations that make the threat harder for your mind to perceive.
 
torpid (me)-
(I guess the best answer to this hypothetical exercise is to carry a gun, a big knife, and know martial arts too- yay!)

STAGE 2-
As someone who also has extensive martial arts experience... nobody on this planet that could convince me to carry a knife in lieu of a handgun for personal defense (both is my preference).

Yipee!

:D
 
Another factor - he's assuming you'll be standing there, waiting for him to close on you. Having been in just such a situation, I can assure you that if you've had any training or experience at all, you'll be back-pedalling as fast as you can while drawing your weapon. This makes it more difficult for your attacker to close the distance, and gives you the opportunity to get off more than one stopping shot.
 
Fish Springs,

What's stopping the two of you from finding out? The MA instructor has practice knives. I'm sure that he has a "red gun" that you could holster. He's got the perfect facility. It's nothing to find out which one of the two of you knows what they're talking about.:evil:

Give it a shot and report back to the class. I'm betting more than one of us here will be surprised by the results.
 
Stab? Perhaps. But a knife wound is by no means instantly fatal. Unless your assailant can overpower you, you will be able to get some shots off into them that should (if you have a properly powerful piece) do a lot more damage than a knife. Knife wounds can be fatal, certainly, but most of the time they're not and they have the advantage of being pretty easy to patch. Unless it hits a vital organ or an artery, you won't die provided you get to a hospital. A wound from a HP .357 at point blank is horrific and for the most part impossible to patch up.

But a person running at you with a knife is nothing to sneeze at. Neither is the more realistic situation of a passer-by slashing out at you.
 
Cosmoline, I did this drill with a very confident sheriff's deputy a few years ago and not only closed to contact, but did so before he could draw and prevented him from drawing while "stabbing" and "slashing" him 5 times. Don't underestimate the lethality of someone with a knife. My opinion has been for years that I would treat someone with a knife as a lethal threat even if they were more than 21 feet from me and I had any chance to draw and move to put something between them and me.
 
hso said:
Cosmoline, I did this drill with a very confident sheriff's deputy a few years ago and not only closed to contact, but did so before he could draw and prevented him from drawing while "stabbing" and "slashing" him 5 times. Don't underestimate the lethality of someone with a knife. My opinion has been for years that I would treat someone with a knife as a lethal threat even if they were more than 21 feet from me and I had any chance to draw and move to put something between them and me.

We ran this drill too. Not one of the officers got away without being stabbed. A few got shots off, but all were poked or slashed. Usually both parties were considered 'dead' in the scenario.

The guns were paint markers, and the knives were chalked rubber training knives.
 
M-Rex,

Did any of the "attackers" make an attempt to stop the officer trainees from drawing their weapon or did they just "go for the kill"?

Guys, I've done this in practice and out of over a dozen different people the only ones that got a round off were the ones that could move and draw while keeping a guard up with their off hand. 3/4 of them couldn't. They just seemed to fumble it.
 
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