Guns vs. Knives

[hso]

One detail to remember is when fending off your attacker so/while you get your shots off is that you want to keep you hand closed to reduce your chance of loosing fingers.

Second, the part of your forearm that will take the least damage from a slash is the ulna (pinky side). Nice big bone, close to the surface, less to bleed out.

Some students fired 2 rounds and stopped to check how they'd done (honest). Just like they shot doing double taps. Some students dumped the whole magazine. These folks hit me more often and usually got me down fastest. While not every shot was a quality hit the slide lock crowd very often the walked the shots up into my COM (except for the little woman that shot me in the gut, chest, then throat, then face mask). The folks that shot to slide lock were the folks that didn't spend hours on the range and hadn't trained themselves to double tap. When in an adrenaline filled setting people do the strangest things and usually revert to "programming".

 

[TwoGun]

Adapt,
I've not attended one of thier seminars but a very good friend of mine has. He said that the initial course was very basic and since he's a trained martial artist it was not a big deal to him. But they do something called "woofing" where they do thier best to intimidate you and get your adrenaline pumping. While it didn't affect him much, IT DID effect a number of people in the class, mostly female. I guess my point was, that dealing with the adrenaline dump is a legitimate training stragegy and one that many trainers ignore. There are a few places that don't.

RMCAT or Rocky Mountain Combat Applications Training, also does the type of training but they look to be more indepth. They do a pretty good firearms training session that focues on shoot/don't shoot situations.

http://www.rmcat.com/

They have a week long course that I'd like to attend but it is expensive, more than going to say Thunder Ranch for a week. But since I'm more inclined to train the entire package rather than just for armed confrontations, it would proabably be worth it to me. I am a trained martail artist and after a lot of years I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't take years of training to learn self defense, it takes years of training to learn martial arts. The two are quite different despite having a certain amount of cross over. But that's getting off subject.

You will however respond how you train, so realistic training is much preferable over dealing with "fluff" that so many places advocate these days.

Good Luck

 

[Slateman]

Ummm . . . I'd be inclined to agree with the martial arts instructer actually. He probably could flick the knife into you in the time it takes you to draw. I've seen em, they are freakishly good. But the time and practice it takes to develop this skill is insanely longer and harder than learning to shoot.

 

[JMusic]

I love this web site!!! First, you can and should assume the guy with the knife will be arms reach away. You may or may not have your weapon out by then. I doubt it. It takes about 4 tenths of a second to "react" to a situation. You react faster from your periferal vision than your straight on vision. If the guy knows how to use the knife you can expect the first blow to be closer to a jab or punch than a thrust or cut. The jab will probably be at your throat. They will punch into your neck and slice through. Pretty amussing so far right. You may be better off defending yourself as if you are unarmed on the "initial attack" then aquire your weapon. I know many here will disagree. I can draw and double tap two targets in about two seconds at ranges of 15 ft. That is from a duty holster and me initating the start. I practice this alot with an air pistol that looks like a L Framed Smith. I could not draw and shoot under the senerio initialy described. I doubt that I would even have the time to reach my weapon. Awareness is the key. Don't get surprised. A very good topic. If you start at the begining, the concensious was the knife guy didn't stand a chance as you went from page to page the gentleman with the gun was at a disadvantage. I don't know how the discussion started between the Black belt and the individual but it is not a boast that most responsible Martial Artists would casualy make. Just my two cents.
Jim

 

[sacp81170a]

The one thing that I have learned in knife training is that the longer you keep the knife hidden, the less chance your opponent has to react to your attack. The BG's know this and will seldom give you the courtesy of drawing a knife, holding it up in the air where you can see it clearly, and charging you from any distance, let alone 21 feet. If I were coming at you with a knife, the first time you'd notice the knife would be *after* it had your blood on it. This concealability factor is what makes knives so dangerous at close quarters.

That's one big reason that when I'm on duty, I don't want to see just your hands in plain sight, I want to see the inside of your *wrists*. Allowing someone I don't know to approach within that magic 21 foot circle without me being able to see their hands is something that I prevent if possible.

In God We Trust, Everybody Else Keep Your Hands Where I Can See 'Em.

If you're suspicious of someone and allow them to approach within charging distance without making use of distance, angling, footwork, and cover, it doesn't matter if he has a knife or not, you'll be forced to react to his actions rather than him being forced to react to yours. Then you better hope you can draw and fire in that 1.25 seconds. You need to develop a feel for predatory behavior and realize when you're being stalked as prey. Take a lesson from the wolf. He doesn't attack Mr. Moose head on, he waits 'til Mr. Moose's back is turned, and then it's a quick in and out.

Mr. BG with a knife will likely do it the same way. Don't act like prey, act like another wolf. Predatory behavior: wary observation, no physical contact until the real attack is made, bluffing or feinting to observe your reaction, trying to get behind the potential victim. If you just stand there while all this is going on, you look like prey. If you're moving on him as he moves on you, you look like another hunter, and this puts him off his game. If you issue commands in a firm tone, you look like a sheep dog, I.E., a good guy, but one with fangs, too. Don't be a sheep.

 

[bratch]

I'll agree with HSO on the shots fired aspect.

In my FOF training the initial drill was to have a duel with 2 rounds fired by each person. I watched people fire 8 or 10. I even bonus balled a couple people. Things start happening at you don't keep track of how many rounds fired. This really made me consider switching to a higher capacity CCW but I haven't done it yet.

Another thing I will agree on is the distance. Knives are alot easier to hide than most pistols. You might not see it at 21 feet but 2 feet.

As Preacherman said movement is key angular movement is a super key.

 

[dxkj21]

Tonight my daughter's martial arts instructor was telling me how with a knife he could kill me before I could bring a gun on target and terminate the threat--offering that from 21 feet, I could not draw and fire fast enough to stop him.

I am able to draw and put two shot on target in under 1.25 seconds--1 on a good day.

What is your experience/thinking on this?

it might be hard to hit a constantly moving, zig zagging person

 

[hso]

"flicking a knife" into someone doesn't happen outside of the movies so we should all forget about it. If you throw a knife it's as a distraction and then only if you have another better knife.

Learning to use a knife is less important than how to defend against one if you carry a handgun (clubs/sticks also), but learning how to defend against and use all of them puts more tools in the defensive tool box.

 

[bratch]

I know a man who CAN throw knives and machetes very well has even written a book on the subject but he said he wouldn't throw one unless he had another on him.

My knife training is a tool that I find feels a very good niche. Is it my primary defense not usually but there are often times I can carry a knife but not a pistol. Its these times I'm glad I have done some training.

ASPs would be nice to carry as I've done some stick training unfortunatley they are illegal to carry here.

 

[Lupinus]

"flicking a knife" into someone doesn't happen outside of the movies so we should all forget about it. If you throw a knife it's as a distraction and then only if you have another better knife.

Uhm...I know plenty of people that can hit a target with a throwing knife, I was never really great and am rusty but Im not half bad either with a knife good for the job. Do not under estimate the lethality of a knife or a knife thrown. Take a ninja star or throwing needle and any idiot can use it very well. Knives you need to learn how to throw so the blade hits rather then the blade. Go buy a hceap ninja star and set up a watermellon and see how long it takes you before you can get that star easily all the way into the water mellon if not completly through it. Sharp object ment to be thrown are very deadly. Then agian just like a highly trained knife fighter you arn't likly to get attacked by one that is good and knife throwing.

 

[torpid]

Hmm... is Hoyt Axton too obscure to mention in this thread?


.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Buy an airsoft pistol and a training knife and try itout for yourself. you might be surprised with the results.

Handguns disable attackers through blood loss. There's enough oxygen in the brain to last 10 or 20 seconds before unconsciousness without a functional cardiovascular system. So even if you manage to hit the guy several times in the chest, all you've done is start the clock ticking on those 10-20 seconds. He'll probably retain the physical capacity to keep his attack up until that clock runs out.

A lot of unpleasantness can happen in 10 seconds.

If the other guy gets in a slash on your neck, your clock will start ticking. Even if you take out the attacker, you'll be at the Pearly Gates in less time than it took to read this post. Not cool.

The bottom line is that a knife is a really mean weapon. Knives are every bit as serious as a guns. NEVER underestimate someone with a knife.

 

[hso]

Guys, the problem with throwing is that the vast majority of folks can't hit anything unless they are standing still and at a paced off distance. The very few that can throw a knife with any accuracy while moving are such a small percentage of the population to be equivalent to those very few guys that can draw and fire hitting a moving target in less than a second. Ask your knife/star throwing aquaintance to do it while moving at an angle to the target and see how accurate they are.

While we may encounter some assailant that has this level of skill they are going to be very rare out of the population of people who might attack us with a knife. It's a risk with a very low probability.

 

[Lupinus]

Guys, the problem with throwing is that the vast majority of folks can't hit anything unless they are standing still and at a paced off distance. The very few that can throw a knife with any accuracy while moving are such a small percentage of the population to be equivalent to those very few guys that can draw and fire hitting a moving target in less than a second.

True but then agian so is the vast majority or people that can use a knife in a manner someone with a basic knowlage of hand to hand self defense cant counter long enough to counter attack. Cut you maybe but not use the knife to the effect of a knife fighter, who turns that right around to a small percentage of people who would be able to defend agiasnt it to great effect without training.

Ask your knife/star throwing aquaintance to do it while moving at an angle to the target and see how accurate they are.

At a walk in the general direction or slightly off with a knife and with a star while jogging by it. Agian stars are extremly easy, you only have to get it on target and it will pretty much take care of the rest. Any idiot with a few minutes of training can hit a watermellon sized target.

 

[TwoGun]

I find it interesting how different experinces form such different opinions.

Knives are deadly, but must be used in close. I guess I discount the thrown knife because realitivly few people and do this with any degree of success. If they could, then there would be a cry from the left to outlaw throwing knives.

I can't claim to know what the MA instructor's intentions were when he brough this up. But I've mentioned it myself a few times. The reason was simply to inform some other folks who carry that they must stay on thier guard, that they are not invencible simply becuse they are carrying a concealed pistol. And the drill points out that enen a guy with a knive is a legitimate danger to them if he gets too close before they recognize the threat. I suspect that the instructor was merely attempting to do the same thing.

I believe that at one time or another most of us have met that guy that thinks he is invincilbe because he is carrying. I'm also sure most of us have come across a lot more people who are simply uninformed on such things and haven't considered the situation. By supplying them with the info, we are just trying to educate them, not create a debate on knive verses gun.

Yet debate is often an enlightening method of putting out information! In this paticular one, I can't see that there are any sides though.

 

[rudolf]

One detail to remember is when fending off your attacker so/while you get your shots off is that you want to keep you hand closed to reduce your chance of loosing fingers.

Second, the part of your forearm that will take the least damage from a slash is the ulna (pinky side). Nice big bone, close to the surface, less to bleed out.

Most knife and counter knife training in the US focuses on slashing. This stems from those 'amercanized escrima' folks with their 'defanging the snake' stuff. You can do lots of fancy training with slashing. Good for the gurus and fancy videos, but not most effective.

The most effective use of the knife is agressive stabbing. Just like trying to punch someones stomach as fast and often as you can, only stabbing instead. This is almost impossible to defend against when done aggressively enough, and needs almost zero training.

I wouldn't train for deflecting or backing off. Running a circle forwards around the attacker is your best bet. If you can draw/shoot while doing that, the better for you.

 

[M-Rex]

Most knife and counter knife training in the US focuses on slashing. This stems from those 'amercanized escrima' folks with their 'defanging the snake' stuff. You can do lots of fancy training with slashing. Good for the gurus and fancy videos, but not most effective.

The most effective use of the knife is agressive stabbing. Just like trying to punch someones stomach as fast and often as you can, only stabbing instead. This is almost impossible to defend against when done aggressively enough, and needs almost zero training.

I wouldn't train for deflecting or backing off. Running a circle forwards around the attacker is your best bet. If you can draw/shoot while doing that, the better for you.

This is exactly the attack style that prison gangs train (yes, train) their members. It is brutal and very effective.

 

[Sir Aardvark]

I don't know if any of you are familiar with James Williams - he does a lot of training for self defense, etc. - but he said in a class I took with him once: "I'll take a gun over a knife any day".

He also mentioned that he would take a stick over a knife too, because he would hurt you really, really bad with a stick.

http://www.dojoofthefourwinds.com/

 

[rudolf]

You don't get mugged by folks like him. Those who attack you want most gain for least effort. They'll do quick and dirty.

 

[hso]

Rudolf and M Rex are correct. Criminals don't slash. They pump the blade into you. They also train in prison to do this.

The simple fact is a knife is a deadly weapon and is employed from hiding and usually without warning leaving little time for drawing a weapon before the attacker closes to contact.

 

[yy]

might suggest

wearing a stab resistant vest?

Researchers from U Delaware has a modified kevlar fabric that can resist ice pick thrusts. They soaked the kevlar fabric in a liquid-suspension of very fine sand.

I think I'll try putting talk powder in my kevlar cloths and see if that does anything. Will report back.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

wearing a stab resistant vest?

Researchers from U Delaware has a modified kevlar fabric that can resist ice pick thrusts. They soaked the kevlar fabric in a liquid-suspension of very fine sand.

I think I'll try putting talk powder in my kevlar cloths and see if that does anything. Will report back.

How do you plan on testing it?