Guys, they're not ignorant by accident.

[cassandrasdaddy]

there is another type of anti not mentioned. folks who believe, often correctly, that they would not be safe with a gun. therefore no one else would be. its a special arrogance

 

[SabbathWolf]

I was under the impression we were discussing conversations with people in our lives, or online or what-have-you. Absolutely the anti-gun politicians need to be voted out! And I am sure we can all agree we'd like for everyone who is anti-gun to go away, but it is not necessary to maintain our freedoms. There will always be a contingent of anti's to fight against, but for now we just need the majority and to grow our ranks however we can.

I agree with every part of that.

My main point is that you still have to fight against the "Hard Core" anti's too, every chance you get. If you don't fight them, then you can't defeat them.
You don't have to convert them...you just have to beat them.
You can't do that by ignoring them and giving them virtual free range to do what ever they like.
That's all I meant.

 

[SabbathWolf]

there is another type of anti not mentioned. folks who believe, often correctly, that they would not be safe with a gun. therefore no one else would be. its a special arrogance

Not be safe "how?"

You mean people who already know they would practice unsafe gun handling because they have no training in the proper way to use it?

Or do you mean people who believe the BS idea that "More people get shot with their own guns than bad guys do" type stuff. Therefor, why bother having one since they don't keep you safe?

Please elaborate a little...?

 

[oldbear]

The second are people who live/work in areas that offer relative safety. They live in an affluent community in an urban area, work in controlled environments, or live away from high crime areas. They can't relate to the use of firearms for self defense at all and the urban ones can't relate to even a need for firearms for hunting.

Mark13, BRAVO.. The group you just defined are the ones we need to concentrate on. These are the generally calm and sane folks who will be the swing vote in this battle. If the majority of these folks can be convinced that 99.5% of us are normal sane citizens who have a unique hobby, “the shooting sports” we will have a powerful ally, in that group.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

"Not be safe "how?""

they are not emotionally fit, self controlled enough , to safely have a gun. the ones i think of are correct about themselves. they just wanna restrict everyone else because of their shortcoming

 

[Stevie-Ray]

There is no point in trying to understand some people. It's like engaging a brick wall.

"Brain so full of BS there's no room for facts?" was one of my lines. Those are the people that I will beat down with the facts. Sorry, but sometimes people deserve to get totally and completely embarrassed in front of their peers. I did this once at work to an anti that was being quite vocal in the lunchroom and it was the talk of the plant for several weeks how he was "put in his place". He had previously been looked up to, or so he thought. He retired soon afterward-no loss AFAIWC.

 

[OilyPablo]

I was under the impression we were discussing conversations with people in our lives, or online or what-have-you.

Yes, this. My example posted about the Fox news article was along the same lines - just perhaps how people are so ignorant about guns, so it's not amazing they can't make intelligent decisions.

 

[holdencm9]

My main point is that you still have to fight against the "Hard Core" anti's too, every chance you get. If you don't fight them, then you can't defeat them.
You don't have to convert them...you just have to beat them.
You can't do that by ignoring them and giving them virtual free range to do what ever they like.
That's all I meant.

I definitely agree. I thought we were talking about trying to change people's minds. I think we can agree that even if we know we won't change their minds, we will fight against their political efforts.

 

[bk42261]

Mayors Against whatever

The mayor of Portland,ME claims that if there were "better" registration laws, a certain homicide here would be solved.
It seems the gun "was sold at a gun show with no background check, and the owner doesn't remember who he sold it to".
So therefore, more registration equals less crime, because they might catch the bad guy after the fact.

 

[SabbathWolf]

I definitely agree. I thought we were talking about trying to change people's minds. I think we can agree that even if we know we won't change their minds, we will fight against their political efforts.

We "are" talking about changing people's minds.
I think we are both on the same track here, but just have different approaches maybe?

To me....and this is just personal opinion....

The more flack we give "Hard Core" anti-gun politicians and the like, the more the media reports something about it. The coverage on Ted Cruz is a good example for instance.

The more the general public hears, about and from, Pro-Constitutionalists the better.
The media is pretty powerful.
That "can" help change some minds of every day Sally & Joe Blow's who have so far only been bombarded with "anti"-gun media propaganda.

If nothing else, it lets them know there are a lot of people out there that disagree with the anti-gun stance. Even if it only causes 1 out of 20 to start thinking harder about it, that still beats not challenging the Big Dogs and allowing the average anti's to keep living in their fantasy world where they think everybody agrees with them.

I dunno. I guess I'm kinda just rambling now or something.

 

[HorseSoldier]

I have seen and heard multiple people "debating" with anti gunners all over the web. I use quotations because a debate requires both sides to be logically interactive with the arguments either side presents. We are the only ones giving facts. All we get from them is a bunch of logical fallacies, emotionalism and lies. I am not talking about your everyday person that watches too much MSM, there is hope for them and you should try to convert them. But for groups like the Brady Campaign, Mayors Against Illegal guns etc are hopelessly lost and there is no sense in even talking to them. I see debating them or even trying to have a rational discussion with them as a man screaming at rocks to become water. They are not ignorant of the facts, they live in those crime rotten cities. They know their policies don't work and never will.

While we can slap each other on the back about our own righteousness and the inherent wrongness of our opponents, I'm comfortable going out on a limb and saying that a stridently anti-gun advocate could make the same sort of statement above about how stupid, confused, evil, and imbecilic gun owners are and it would make perfect sense to other folks on his side of the argument.

Rather than engaging in celebratory back slapping and dismissals of the other guy, however, maybe we would be better served by discussion of how we do reach across the aisle to those who will listen and how we neutralize the arguments of those who will not. At a moment when gun rights seem to be teetering on being a slavery-level dividing line in this country I don't know that "just ignore them, you'll feel better" is a productive line of thinking for how we approach the other side.

 

[Bill_Shelton]

I used to be one of those ignorant people. I became ignorant after having someone unjustifiably pull a handgun on me, and point it at me when I was a young man (18).

I grew up hunting and shooting rifles and shotguns most every day from 13-18 years-old. I love guns...always have.

However, that love did not extend to handguns...I hated these weapons with a passion and I felt that most people who owned then were somehow lacking as men - that they were some kind of mean-spirited cowards. And this belief did not come from any ideology anyone spouted to me - it came from personal experience.

I was a good kid, yet by the time I was 18 I had been threatened with handguns twice - and we did nothing to provoke it. One was a business owner and the other a stupid, mean neighbor - pillars of the community so-to-speak. The last time, the local service station owner pulled a pistol on a friend and I and pointed it at us - totally without justification. Thank goodness he didn't shoot, and then he apologized and went back to getting drunk. But that sealed the deal for me for years to come: handguns sucked.

Years later I recounted the stories in detail to a pro-pistol friend of mine. He listened to me and agreed that what happened to me was bad and that he understood where I got my dislike of handguns - and especially some of the people who owned them. Eventually, he and his shooting buddies won me over to their side - but this was not because they "smashed" any of my arguments - it was because he and his friends were a good example. They listened and were thoughtful and did not spout jingoistic propaganda. And their intelligent arguments and calm demeanor eventually won the day. I'm now a happy handgun owner and a defender of the right to own and carry handguns.

Anyways, I would figure that there is nothing more detrimental to the cause of Gun Ownership than having some yahoo pull a gun on an innocent person. I cringe every time it happens, because in such cases the open end of a gun barrel is a terrible and long-lasting argument. Afterwards, it often takes a delicate approach to undo the damage.

Some of you talk about the anti's unreasoned fears, or destroying their arguments with facts or just tweaking their noses for fun. In a large number of cases, I just don't think this view is going to work and for some very good reasons like those listed above. I know it didn't work me. Understanding, Patience and a Good Example won me over. Maybe it will work for others.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Some of you talk about the anti's unreasoned fears, or destroying their arguments with facts or just tweaking their noses for fun. In a large number of cases, I just don't think this view is going to work and for some very good reasons like those listed above. I know it didn't work me. Understanding, Patience and a Good Example won me over. Maybe it will work for others.

Then you go ahead and understand them and have patience. My patience has worn out and all we have to show for it is the same damn elitists hauling out their crap again for congress to chew on. Patience? Not when we supposedly have the law on our side, but they have emotional immaturity from tragedies, irrational fears, and the whole of the lying mainstream media on theirs, shouting for that law to be trashed. I firmly believe that if the GOP doesn't stand firm this time, there's going to be civil unrest unlike what has ever been seen.

 

[SabbathWolf]

Then you go ahead and understand them and have patience. My patience has worn out and all we have to show for it is the same damn elitists hauling out their crap again for congress to chew on. Patience? Not when we supposedly have the law on our side, but they have emotional immaturity from tragedies, irrational fears, and the whole of the lying mainstream media on theirs, shouting for that law to be trashed. I firmly believe that if the GOP doesn't stand firm this time, there's going to be civil unrest unlike what has ever been seen.

I agree.
"Patience" and "understanding" only gets you destroyed when you are under attack.
I truly hope you are wrong about the civil unrest thing though....but deep down inside, I actually fear you "could" be right.

 

[barnbwt]

Humility is only a virtue when you're calling the shots--otherwise it tends to be counterproductive.

Civil unrest can't happen because only one side is willing to defend themselves . So long as the cops still fear having to go door to door and confiscate those evil guns from all those trigger-happy crazies out there, the ground-level guys will refuse to excercise confiscation (i.e. the brewing "sheriff's revolt" we're seeing in many states)

TCB

 

[SabbathWolf]

Humility is only a virtue when you're calling the shots--otherwise it tends to be counterproductive.

Civil unrest can't happen because only one side is willing to defend themselves . So long as the cops still fear having to go door to door and confiscate those evil guns from all those trigger-happy crazies out there, the ground-level guys will refuse to excercise confiscation (i.e. the brewing "sheriff's revolt" we're seeing in many states)

TCB

I dunno man.

Republican Abraham Lincoln sent Federal troops against our civilian population.

Democrat FDR ordered the rounding up of a couple 100,000+ innocent Japanese-Americans at the beginning of WW2 and threw them all in prison camps.

I don't necessarily trust ANYBODY any more to be honest.

 

[Domina]

Never pick an argument with an invinceably or purposfully ignorant person unless you are confident it can be used as a teaching moment for others. Don't expect to "fix stupid", but make a good example of the truth that others will properly learn from

 

[k_dawg]

Trying to argue with them is like trying to convince a KKK member to give up the hood.

 

[HighExpert]

I am of the opinion that we must change the direction that the political will is heading in the country. We have bigger problems than just libs who don't like guns. I propose that the next conservative government do the the following. Triple the taxes of all supporters of the current fiasco of a government to pay off the debts that their choice incurred. This will not pay the debts but will cause a mass exodus of libs to other countries that see things their way. I, for one, would be wiling to cover the debts if I didn't have to tolerate any more "social experiments, do it because maybe one life would be saved, and you have to spend more to get out of debt". We need a large injection of common sense and if there are those who refuse to accept it, they need to go. I used to have a sign in my classroom, "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It will frustrate you and it annoys the pig."