H&K 416 vs. other M16's
- Thread starter ruckus3008
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Before it was Colt Canada it was Diemaco and built the C7 and C8 under license from Colt.
Jeff
Jeremy2171
Member
And the Philippines....
Don't forget Norway
Norway just switched over to the HK416 and should be on this list
"It's got the gas piston... which pretty much everybody else in the world uses, AFAIK.
Israelis: Gas piston.
Italy: Gas piston.
France: 'Lever delayed blowback'. IOW, screwy beyond belief.
UK: Gas piston.
Germany: Gas piston.
Switzerland: Gas piston.
China: Gas piston.
Of course:
Canada: AR clone.
Denmark: Canadian AR clone.
Netherlands: Canadian AR clone."
Norway just switched over to the HK416 and should be on this list
"It's got the gas piston... which pretty much everybody else in the world uses, AFAIK.
Israelis: Gas piston.
Italy: Gas piston.
France: 'Lever delayed blowback'. IOW, screwy beyond belief.
UK: Gas piston.
Germany: Gas piston.
Switzerland: Gas piston.
China: Gas piston.
Of course:
Canada: AR clone.
Denmark: Canadian AR clone.
Netherlands: Canadian AR clone."
Someone posted earlier that the AR15 is "reliable enough as it is"
Reliable "enough?" If you have ever operated an AR15 in any type of sandy or dirty environment you night think otherwise. If your life depended on it you might also think otherwise. In most cases, I would take an AK47 or other piston type assault rifle over an AR15 hand down. The AR15 is a superior sporting rifle but as an assault rifle it is lacking in reliability and toughness. They are much better suited in operating system and caliber for what our boys are doing now. Its better to give up a little long range accuracy for a weapon that will go BANG when you need it too. The AR15 is not a BAD weapon, there are just better tools for the job in our current environment. IMHO.
Reliable "enough?" If you have ever operated an AR15 in any type of sandy or dirty environment you night think otherwise. If your life depended on it you might also think otherwise. In most cases, I would take an AK47 or other piston type assault rifle over an AR15 hand down. The AR15 is a superior sporting rifle but as an assault rifle it is lacking in reliability and toughness. They are much better suited in operating system and caliber for what our boys are doing now. Its better to give up a little long range accuracy for a weapon that will go BANG when you need it too. The AR15 is not a BAD weapon, there are just better tools for the job in our current environment. IMHO.
Don't Tread On Me
Member
H&K marketing is deceptive.
They start off by bashing existing systems and their reliability in *sandy* environments. They then work the sales pitch propaganda into a matter of operating system and carbon fouling.
The problem is, it has long been established that the impingement system is not a detriment to reliability. Regardless of gas piston or gas impingement - sand is an issue in both due to the clearances of the AR, the bolt design and other features of the action and system.
Your mind is filled with the subject of AR's jamming in the desert - then it switches over to a piston system to cope with the poor reliability of fouling in the action.
The goal is to have you assume the desert related sand/dust issues are a function of the gas system and that H&K has a solution for this. Which they clearly do not.
They start off by bashing existing systems and their reliability in *sandy* environments. They then work the sales pitch propaganda into a matter of operating system and carbon fouling.
The problem is, it has long been established that the impingement system is not a detriment to reliability. Regardless of gas piston or gas impingement - sand is an issue in both due to the clearances of the AR, the bolt design and other features of the action and system.
Your mind is filled with the subject of AR's jamming in the desert - then it switches over to a piston system to cope with the poor reliability of fouling in the action.
The goal is to have you assume the desert related sand/dust issues are a function of the gas system and that H&K has a solution for this. Which they clearly do not.
Jeremy2171
Member
That would have been me..... since I just got in off the road from a trip to Fallujah and TQ, I have "some" idea on using it in a sandy/dirty environment...and my life does depend on it so I won't think otherwise. I've seen plenty of AK's break out here as well and they aren't always the "perfect" weapon you think they are.
Our "boys" are doing just fine over here with no problems with the rifle/weapons we have.
Again ...no need to replace the M16 type weapon since it is reliable enough and gets the job done when needed.
When did I say the AK was PERFECT?? Sorry if my opinion of your pet AR doesn't click with yours I didn't realize I needed to be in Fallujah to have an opinion. The fact of the matter is the AK isn't perfect but it has a reputation for reliability and toughness the AR only WISHES it could have. Does it work fine? For the most part, yes. I just said the AK was better suited to the environment. If your going to attack my statement at least TRY to be honest or at least accurate about what I said.
In all honesty, I would like us to keep the present system we have but I would like to switch to one of the heavier calibers on the market to add a little more penetration and versatility to the weapon.
In all honesty, I would like us to keep the present system we have but I would like to switch to one of the heavier calibers on the market to add a little more penetration and versatility to the weapon.
MisterPX
Member
Do the sands of Iraq and Kuwait count? No issues whatsoever with functioning, in fact, none of my men had any issues with operation. Oh, and my life did depend on it.
Point taken. I wish everyone's experience was as positive. I have experienced otherwise, it was a few years ago though, and several of my friends have relayed different experiences in more recent years. I'm glad yours was more positive. Again, the statement wasn't an attack on the AR platform merely a comparison to the different platform as a MORE RELIABLE design. I would think if someone had the opportunity to have access to a tougher more reliable style of weapon to take into combat this would be a good thing. If the piston gas system weapon can operate when it is dirtier, or wetter, or is less ammo sensitive than the DI system than, to me, this is a plus.
Don't Tread On Me
Member
If an AR jams in the dirt, so will the HK. AFAIK, they haven't "fixed" anything that changes that fact. All they did was add a piston. All the piston does is reduce fouling from being blown back into the action. Fouling in the action has been proved to NOT be a problem.
Evil Monkey
member
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It's not the fouling.......it's the damn way the M16 family works! The gas uses the back of the bolt as leverage to push the bolt carrier rearward as the gas fills the space in between the bolt and carrier. The pistons were introduced to solve the problems of the short M4 carbines. Apparently, there's alot of over pressure and, thus, premature wear of parts like the bolt, which in about 6,000rds would break in half.
Don't believe me? Get to page 44.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2006smallarms/taylor.pdf
A piston just pushes the carrier. There's no gas violently trying to separate the bolt from the carrier. I think that the easiest way of solving the overpressure problems is by introducing a mid length gas system.
They did more than add a piston. The bolt and buffer are heavier. There is more momentum to slam the bolt forward which aids reliability. I personally think a gas piston system in a heavier caliber would make for a much more reliable and versatile weapon for our troops than what we have now. Really, just a heavier caliber would probably have the same result. Heavier bolt, buffer etc...
I've worked in Law Enforcement for more than 16 years. I don't every remember firing the AR15s in qualification (30 rounds) where at least one person on the firing line didn't have a jam of some type. These weapons weren't filled with dirt, just carbon from shooting. Normally they didn't fire more than a couple hundred rounds each during qual. (And this is with high quality commercial ammo)
I've worked in Law Enforcement for more than 16 years. I don't every remember firing the AR15s in qualification (30 rounds) where at least one person on the firing line didn't have a jam of some type. These weapons weren't filled with dirt, just carbon from shooting. Normally they didn't fire more than a couple hundred rounds each during qual. (And this is with high quality commercial ammo)
Limeyfellow
Member
Not too surprising. Too pass the tests for the US military, the M16s made at the FN plant in South Carolina have to be able to do 4MOA too. The same is true with the Colt plant that makes the M4s.
Of course many are capable of doing much better than this, but thats beyond expectations and comparing the standard military arm to an accurasied AR15, specifically designed to be more accurate and for match play is a bit unfair.
Geronimo45
Member
I stand corrected. Are you folks up there allowed to have those things by any chance?
rkh
member
Negative.
Carbine length DI systems put excessive strain on the bolt. See report linked above.
Although carbon fouling never accumulates enough to cause stoppages, all that hot gas blowing around quickly dries out lubricant on the bolt carrier. For optimum reliability, it's necessary to relubricate every 200-300 rounds.
While not reliability related, DI ARs are unpleasant to shoot suppressed and take a lot longer to clean than their gas piston counterparts.
I'm guessing that the gas piston critics here have never actually shot a gas piston AR. My LWRC wins converts every time I take it to the range.
Jeremy2171
Member
I guess the excessive strain on the carbine gas systems is why I'm surrounded with M4s and broken bolts here in Iraq? (not) Havent seen one broken bolt in an M4 and I've been around these for a while now....
rkh
member
I think that speaks to the attentiveness of your unit's armorers. Wear issues associated with short gas tubes are well known, well documented, and not debated.
Really??? How many rounds can you get out of a bolt in a carbine? What is the wear rate on various parts of the M4 system? If this is so well documented, you should be able to come up with the answer right away...and the source of your information. Enquiring minds want to know.
The fact is, you hit on the only advantage of a gas piston AR, shooting with a can. You gain nothing but weight with a gas piston for any other application and you lose accuracy. The latest batch of 416s to be delivered has been lucky to get 6 MOA. Function problems have also been reported.
I'm really interested to see your wear data. And where you got it.
Jeff
HorseSoldier
Member
There's a published notice calling for inspection rather than replacement (if I remember right, read it months ago) of bolt and related components at the 5000 round mark.
I saw that notice too. The problem is, no one that I know of keeps 2408s on small arms. Most units would have no idea how many rounds were through a particular M4.
The rate of fire has a lot to do with the wear issue. Heat, especially in the M4A1 rather then the speed of the bolt carrier group in recoil is the biggest factor in wear. "H" buffers have the M4s and M4A1s running fine. It's when you get into 10 inch barrels that you start having problems, although Crane seems to be happy with the MK 18.
Jeff
rkh
member
Why don't you check the SOPMOD slideshow that was linked a few posts up?
If I have time later tonight, I'll see if I can't dig up an armorer manual.
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