H&R Sportsman

[Monac]

The Sportsman/Model 999 frame is descended from H&R's 38 S&W line of top-break revolvers, and a 38 S&W version of it was made into the 1970's at least, as the Model 926 (4 inch barrel only, with manual ejection for some reason). I cannot believe that Stingers were too powerful for it in some way. OTOH, it is strange that a burst rim caused this problem. This is exactly the kind of thing rebated chamber mouths are supposed to prevent.

 

[chicharrones]

The Sportsman/Model 999 frame is descended from H&R's 38 S&W line of top-break revolvers, and a 38 S&W version of it was made into the 1970's at least, as the Model 926 (4 inch barrel only, with manual ejection for some reason). I cannot believe that Stingers were too powerful for it in some way. OTOH, it is strange that a burst rim caused this problem. This is exactly the kind of thing rebated chamber mouths are supposed to prevent.

The 999 Sportsman doesn't have rebated chamber mouths. The cylinder does have a protective ring around the outside diameter of the cylinder, though.

View attachment 769823

 

[whughett]

Chicharrones, yours appears to be a cut above mine, this circa, 1966 has no barrel cutouts, H&R Sportsman, over Double Action stamped on left side of the barrel and
Harrington & Richardson Arms Co, Worcester Mass USA on right. 22Long Rifle CTG is hand stamped on right side barrel just in front of cylinder. SN is on the bottom of the back strap . The front sight is adjustable for height and the barrel top is matte black. The bluing is not as "blue" as yours, more black, the trigger is serrated, the hammer engine turned. The fluting on the cylinder appears to be shorter and wider on this one but that may be an optical allusion of the photo.

The recessed cut out around the cartridges is what I was referring to as a "rebate" hence the (?) following that reference. The chamber mouths would not be chamfered, I would not think, except on some black powder guns.

 

[chicharrones]

Chicharrones, yours appears to be a cut above mine . . .

Believe me, the right side isn't as nice as the left on my 1981 version. The right side has some rust pits. Arrrgh. Oh well, makes for a good shooter.

BTW, here's a pic I took while doing a quick check of my .22 WMR conversion dream. Only a dream, though.

View attachment 769825

 

[whughett]

The Sportsman/Model 999 frame is descended from H&R's 38 S&W line of top-break revolvers, and a 38 S&W version of it was made into the 1970's at least, as the Model 926 (4 inch barrel only, with manual ejection for some reason). I cannot believe that Stingers were too powerful for it in some way. OTOH, it is strange that a burst rim caused this problem. This is exactly the kind of thing rebated chamber mouths are supposed to prevent.

I'm inclined to agree with the thought on the stingers. The ring around the seated cartridges did its job, I'm thinking, my left hand only received minor particle impacts, and they appeared as unburned powder specks, as a black powder revolver shooter, primarily, that's stuff I usually ignore. The imploded case is the mystery, hope CCI can offer some input. Which leads me to terminology, as a black powder shooter, "mouth" is the other end of the cylinder, so wasn't sure what to call the loading end of a cartridge end, just gets swapped around I guess.

 

[whughett]

Chicharrones, point taken on the 22 Mag idea. Just noticed the address city on yours, some where along the line H&R must have been bought out and moved (?) from Worcester Mass to Gardner Mass, or perhaps the other way round, although Worcester was an Industrial city through the nineteenth century.

 

[Monac]

Thanks, chicarrones! I completely mis-remembered how the cylinder of the H&R 999 was made. I guess the rebated chamber mouths were a feature of more expensive guns, like the S&W Kit Gun and the Model 17. So yes, this explains how the burst rim on the one round was able to damage another round in the some way, while still doing a decent job of protecting the shooter.

 

[whughett]

Looking at the photo of the cylinder view in post 27 I'm recalling that the blow out was pretty much lined up with the extractor lines, below the firing pin indent and orientated more to the left quadrant of the rim. Those extractor lines are like little valleys connecting each chamber.

 

[whughett]

CCI, rather a Technical Service Rep from Vista Outdoor responded to my inquirers of the blown out 22 Stinger. After several back and forth emails he has determined that the fault lies with the revolver. No surprise there. The Stinger round has a longer case, (photo), than 22LR's and a "ring" in the cylinder prevents the case from seating properly and it fires out of battery. I have no idea what he is talking about. The chamber walls are smooth bored thru and thru and a cylinder full of mixed brands with several Stingers mixed in doesn't show any difference. (photo.)

I have noticed that the cylinder in this gun, even in battery, has some fore and aft movement in it, slight, but it does move, and I'll see if I can devise a way to measure it with feeler gauges.
In light of that perhaps the gun fired, the cylinder move back under recoil, the hammer fall pushes it forward into battery the gun fires cycle repeats. What ever, I will now only shoot standard velocity ammo through it. I'll have a gun smith look at it.

To "reimburse" me for the postage of sending the fired and blown cases to Vista they are sending me a box of 22's of my choice, oddly even Stingers.

As to the other 600 rounds of this 22 on hand he was confident there was no fault with them. So I'll confine them to the S&W 41 or the Ruger Mark III, or perhaps the Ruger Single Six. I do have several 22 rifles but rifle shooting is few and far between.

 

[Mauser lover]

Well... I'm pretty sure he's wrong, I don't see how even an out of battery detonation could result in a a RIM blowing out... But I'm pretty sure there is probably nothing wrong with your revolver either...

 

[Jim Watson]

Out of battery is the gunboard version of "The dog ate my homework."
A 22 revolver firing "out of battery" is the equivalent of "The dinosaur ate my homework."

Rimfire rims split every once in a while, that's just the nature of a folded head single use case.

In the paper shell era, there would be an occasional split shotshell, too. And if in a double, the shell in the other barrel could be deformed, so that is not a total surprise, either.

 

[If1HitU]

I'm not up to speed on the markings on the H&R Sportsmans through all the years. Mine has "Sportsman" on the barrel and "Model 999" on the barrel right in front of the cylinder above the words "made in USA". Plus, the 999s cylinder is too short front to back to take a .22 WMR. I think the frame is up to .22 WMR, but the cylinder and frame opening can't take the length. Not to mention other little issues with the cylinder spacing for a larger diameter cartridge in that gun.

Believe me, I thought about converting a 999 to .22 WMR.

View attachment 769788

Love this pic!

 

[Slamfire]

You know, blowups are not an exact science!

 

[Jim Watson]

So, H&Rs are stronger than Springfields.

Lots of good parts left on that one. Bet the barrel is ok.

 

[whughett]

On the subject of blowups. What are the odds, a fellow in my gun club, both unnamed, on a Wednesday afternoon recently past, blew up an antique 45/70. Destroyed the gun and sent him backwards on his backside, on the following Saturday he returned to the same club and blew up a Model 70 in .308, destroying that gun also. He is/was an experienced hand loader.

Further details are sketchy but the e board has ask for his resignation.

 

[Slamfire]

On the subject of blowups. What are the odds, a fellow in my gun club, both unnamed, on a Wednesday afternoon recently past, blew up an antique 45/70. Destroyed the gun and sent him backwards on his backside, on the following Saturday he returned to the same club and blew up a Model 70 in .308, destroying that gun also. He is/was an experienced hand loader.

Further details are sketchy but the e board has ask for his resignation.

Skeptics always demand detailed failure investigations when I question the safety of pre 1920 rifles. And yet, this is typical of the reports of blows up, if the news gets out in the public domain.

Experienced handloader does not mean competent. I talked to Panda Stolle, one of their customers blew up his Panda Stolle action because he had loaded the cartridges with the wrong powder. Then, that customer did not cull those reloaded cartridges, used them again, and blew up another Panda Stolle action.

 

[Jim Watson]

There was a guy here known to the enthusiasts at the gun store coffee club as "Scoops." He was apparently semi-literate and powder designations meant nothing to him. He had blown up two M70 .300 Win Mags by scooping the cases full of whatever powder he had and crunching a bullet down on it. "If they meant me to use less powder, they would have made the shells smaller." The dealer protected his third rifle by selling him only powder so slow burning as to make case full loads safe.

 

[Sarge7402]

Actually, this used to be a common occurrence back in the early days of the high speed 22 ammo. So much so that some companies touted the fact that their cylinders were counterbored to enclose the rim heads. On a more recent note, I had a CCI stinger found burst a shell head on my FEG SMC launching the extractor to parts unknown. And yes, I did Contact CCI and they asked me to ship the rest of the box. However, I could'nt narrow it down to less than four possible lots of ammo and didn't send them

 

[ATLDave]

Slam' and Jim, those stories are both horrifying and (from this safe remove) hilarious. Those of us who enjoy (safe) reloading need to remember that not everyone is cut out for it. It's a little like getting a private pilot's licenses - it's not for everyone.

 

[whughett]

Skeptics always demand detailed failure investigations when I question the safety of pre 1920 rifles. And yet, this is typical of the reports of blows up, if the news gets out in the public domain.

Experienced handloader does not mean competent. I talked to Panda Stolle, one of their customers blew up his Panda Stolle action because he had loaded the cartridges with the wrong powder. Then, that customer did not cull those reloaded cartridges, used them again, and blew up another Panda Stolle action.

The issue here, from a club point of view becomes one of safety for members who may be in the vicinity, bad luck or bad reloading practices will never be truly known in this case. From a liability stand point its the reason many public indoor shooting ranges ban the use of hand loads.

 

[ATLDave]

From a liability stand point its the reason many public indoor shooting ranges ban the use of hand loads.

My suspicion is that the overwhelming reason is the desire to sell highly profitable ammo to shooters. Not "liability."

 

[whughett]

My suspicion is that the overwhelming reason is the desire to sell highly profitable ammo to shooters. Not "liability."

No argument there, I just read the sign on the door.

 

[ATLDave]

If I read THAT sign on the door, I show that establishment my back.

I'm fortunate to live in an area with an abundance of indoor ranges. There are a few that have such rules, and/or rules against picking up brass. They have get by without my company or, more importantly, my money.

 

[whughett]

If I read THAT sign on the door, I show that establishment my back.

I'm fortunate to live in an area with an abundance of indoor ranges. There are a few that have such rules, and/or rules against picking up brass. They have get by without my company or, more importantly, my money.

They are Port Charlotte Florida ranges and its why I use the County public range in Sarasota County, which had no policy on brass retrieval until the economy tanked a few years ago, now one is restricted to recovering ones own brass. Pity I created quite a stock pile of brass until then. Now a coalition of women recover all brass not otherwise claimed and scrap it for the county.

 

[Jim Watson]

Actually, this used to be a common occurrence back in the early days of the high speed 22 ammo. So much so that some companies touted the fact that their cylinders were counterbored to enclose the rim heads.

Yes, this got to be standard in the field. So standard, that when S&W brought out the .357 Magnum as their superdeluxe top of the line revolver, they counterbored the chambers so you would feel safe with the high powered ammo, even though there was never a folded head or even balloon head .357 case to actually need it. Now "pinned and recessed" is a mark of Good Old Days quality in a S&W.