Handgun competition - best place to start?

[azrocks]

So the wife & I are wanting to start competing. I've done a handful of IDPA matches, she's done a couple of static shoots.

Our goal is to get into action shooting (IDPA, IPSC, etc), but we need to get in better shape physically, and our fundamental skills could stand some refinement.

What type of competition would you suggest to start with first, and why?

Thanks in advance for any input.

 

[ny32182]

If you have done some IDPA matches, I'd say you have already started. 99% of everyone in the handgun sports could stand some physical improvement.

There are local club locators on both the IDPA and USPSA websites. Find what interests you, and what is near you, and then as long as you have basic functional gear (doesn't have to be optimized), and understand the safety rules, and can safely manipulate the gun and other gear, just start going to matches. The quickest way to learn early on is to do.

Then as your experience level grows, you will develop goals (or not) that will drive you toward whatever division interests you most, dictates what skills you want to improve, etc.

 

[Sunray]

"...to start with first..." Bullseye. Teaches you all the essential basics of shooting(breathing, sight picture and trigger control) that are required by the shooting games. Shooting bullseye doesn't mean you cannot go play the games at the same time though. Most clubs that shoot the games also shoot bullseye. All the guys I know who are really good(one of 'em beat Miculek in a man on man, years ago, at Second Chance.) at the shooting games are really good at bullseye too.
Don't even think about sharing firearms with the wife, if that was a thought. You each need your own firearms. Nobody shoots anything like anybody else. Fit of the hand gun and sight adjustment is always different for everybody.
And don't get mad when it turns out she's better than you. Women are just inherently better shots than men. It's suspected that it's about then not having John Wayne to live up to.
"...need to get in better shape..." It's running for the games. Upper body tone, back and shoulders, for bullseye. Mind you, upper body tone matters with the games too. Think in terms of holding a couple pounds relatively still out on the end of your arm.

 

[waktasz]

I've never heard of anyone at any of my IDPA or USPSA clubs that started in bullseye. In fact, I don't even know of any clubs in the area that even hold bullseye matches, and there are at least 10 USPSA and IDPA clubs within 90 minutes of here.
Maybe they keep it a secret so we don't make fun of them.

 

[egd]

Yeah, I don't think it matters much what you start with as long as you just try everything you can. They are all fun, but you'll probably find you like some better than others. Don't let other people you run across tell you don't shoot this or don't shoot that. They have their likes and dislikes and that's ok. But you need to develop your own. That's why there's Fords and Chevys.

 

[LocoGringo]

I actually started with Cowboy Action before I knew anything else existed. Shooting fundamentals are the same across the board. Each game has its own rules, so it will eventually come down to a matter of which set of rules you like best and what your gun fits into. As I stated, I started in Cowboy Action and migrated to IDPA and then to IPSC/USPSA and then to 3-gun. Because of the creativity and diversity of 3-gun, I LOVE it and am completely hooked. I sold my Cowboy guns to enter into 3-gun. IDPA is supposed to be the closest to real world practice, but I'm frustrated with a couple of the rules and firearms limitations. Generally, if I'm not mistaken, IDPA stages aren't supposed to go past 18 rounds for a stage, so it's a low round count, good entry into "tactical/practical" type shooting. USPSA is fast and free with potentially high round counts. Steel challenge is stand and deliver, but good for concentration and practice, but can be very high round count. Try them all and see what you like.

Just remember the first rule for every single one of them...BE SAFE first. Don't get caught up in speed from the beginning which can be easy while watching others shoot before you. No one likes going home early because they got DQ'd for a safety violation. Rule two is have fun. Remember, it's just a game.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Another vote for Bullseye. Shooting single handed at 50yds gets your head right.

I like IDPA when it first started but don't like what it has become. I think it lost the spirit of what it was meant to be. Was asked today to get back into and I declined.

 

[Jim Watson]

There is no real excuse. Just because you are not good enough to win does not mean you are not good enough to try.
Bullseye is good, if you can find it. Exercise is good, when you get 'round tuit.

A friend recommends Speed Steel. It is mostly static, bang-clang is viscerally rewarding, and you will soon learn to balance speed and accuracy.

I like IDPA, can manage USPSA, will fit in some Steel, am looking at some outlaw matches.

 

[AZAndy]

I forget what part of AZ you're in. If you're in Yavapai County, the YCRL has meets going on every weekend-- SASS, Steel, USPSA, IDPA, and probably others I'm not remembering right now. You could watch a few and see what you think you might like.

 

[azrocks]

I appreciate all of your responses. And Andy, I'm in Maricopa County, but I appreciate the info regardless.

As I said, my ultimate goal - my destination - is to get into and be at least descent at some form of action (IDPA/USPSA/ETC) shooting. But what I don't want to do is get so caught up in trying to go fast that I fail to lay down a solid skill foundation. As things stand now, I'm a descent shot slow-fire, but I really haven't practiced much in the way of putting multiple rounds on target in rapid succession.

I'd rather go slow and perfect my form than go fast and be forced to unlearn bad habits somewhere up the road. But from other hobbies I've learned that competition is often the best teacher. So I remain a little torn.

Maybe doing bulleye and IDPA/USPSA is the way to go.

Oh yeah - Sunray - she's got her own gun, she's already a great shot, and being schooled by her would do nothing more than bring a big smile to my face

 

[ATLDave]

Don't be like me. For several years I was interested in USPSA but worried I wasn't good enough. I was worried I just wasn't good enough at fundamentals. I couldn't print small groups at will. I couldn't reload fast. So I delayed. I just kept plugging away at the square range.

Boy was that dumb! All I did was keep myself from learning the stuff I was only going to learn by competing AND put off having fun!!!! If you're interested in USPSA, go shoot a match this weekend! You don't need to learn some other game first. This makes zero sense to me.

If you want to get good at golf, play and practice golf. Don't delay playing golf until you learn tennis as some kind of entry sport. That makes no sense.

Go do the game that seems fun to you. Life is too short to do otherwise.

 

[azrocks]

Alright - we signed up for a USPSA introductory class / match coming up this month. Then it's off to the races

Thanks for the edumacation!

 

[Dudedog]

Only been doing USPSA a bit and I find it loads of fun, bet you will to.

 

[earplug]

Don't forget Steel Challenge. Look up some Youtube video and go have fun. Not as physical as USPSA and the game goes faster as no targets to reset or tape. Light Centerfire loads are fine and 22LR. Great way to practice before doing a bunch of USPSA.

 

[ny32182]

Agreed that shooting fundamentals are extremely important, and all the top USPSA guys are better at them than 99.999% of all the other shooters out there, but there is a point of diminishing returns in terms of how much printing very tight groups in slow fire will improve your game in USPSA. I know one guy in particular that came from a bullseye background; my understanding is that he was VERY good at that, like just off national team level. He shot USPSA for several years trying to get good at that too, but never progressed past a solid B-class level. We discussed his training sessions; I know he had the knowledge about what to do, but, he just wasn't doing it.

Upper B class is again, a more technically skilled pistol shooter than 99.99% of all pistol shooters on planet Earth, but, it is of course not an elite level within USPSA. If you want to get moderately decent at USPSA, you MUST practice all the other skills you need to do well there, and you MUST NOT delay doing so until you reach some arbitrary pinnacle of slow fire competency, which will likely never come anyway. That doesn't mean stop working on trigger pull fundamentals by any means. It just means DO NOT do so at the expense of everything else, no matter how green you are.

Sounds like you are onto it.

 

[azrocks]

Agreed that shooting fundamentals are extremely important, and all the top USPSA guys are better at them than 99.999% of all the other shooters out there, but there is a point of diminishing returns in terms of how much printing very tight groups in slow fire will improve your game in USPSA. I know one guy in particular that came from a bullseye background; my understanding is that he was VERY good at that, like just off national team level. He shot USPSA for several years trying to get good at that too, but never progressed past a solid B-class level. We discussed his training sessions; I know he had the knowledge about what to do, but, he just wasn't doing it.

Upper B class is again, a more technically skilled pistol shooter than 99.99% of all pistol shooters on planet Earth, but, it is of course not an elite level within USPSA. If you want to get moderately decent at USPSA, you MUST practice all the other skills you need to do well there, and you MUST NOT delay doing so until you reach some arbitrary pinnacle of slow fire competency, which will likely never come anyway. That doesn't mean stop working on trigger pull fundamentals by any means. It just means DO NOT do so at the expense of everything else, no matter how green you are.

Sounds like you are onto it.

That's pretty much what I really needed to hear.

Thank you all

 

[lonegunman]

Action shooting is more about action and less about shooting. As a rule a 150 shot day of IPSC is less than 150 seconds of shooting, most of it less than 15yds. The other six hours is taping, picking up brass and waiting your turn. IDPA stands for "I don't practice anymore" IPSC stands for "I Practice Shooting Close". All teasing aside, shoot whatever sport you like. If it gets you in better shape, allows you to have fun with the wife and enjoy guys who like shooting then have at it.

Bullseye is a great place to learn sight alignment and trigger control and to become an accurate shooter. I prefer "Precision Pistol" as it is now called by the NRA. I have shot nearly every sport possible with every firearm possible. Action shooting is a good way to learn to reload on the fly, move and shoot with an elevated heart rate and hit targets really close. Every different game requires a different skill set and equipment. Unless you have unlimited time and money, pick one to start with and don't buy expensive gear until after you shoot a few matches.

As the guy posting above me said, most USPSA class "B" shooters think they are better than 99.99% of the world. If the world was VERY small that would be true. They must all be "Swedish Champions". I've met very few of them who can get past me with a rifle at distance, a pistol with accuracy, a shotgun with anything. Many of the skills that make you fast on the range make you dead on the battle field or in the parking lot. Having spent 27 years in the military, competed on a national level team, used a gun in a two way shooting event and qualified as an Expert in all five branches of the military, I remain unimpressed.

 

[waktasz]

oh here we go. I don't know why being able to quickly draw and put shots on target would make you dead in the parking lot. Action shooters are training for things that self defense shooters might actually have to use some day. I don't know any bullseye shooters that can draw and put 6 shots on target in, say, 1.75 seconds.

 

[ny32182]

I see a whole lot of pistol shooters every year, and I'm entirely confident in saying that a solid USPSA B class shooter's all around pistol shooting and handling skill is in the top .5% of them all, at worst, and probably better than that. Not sure what that has to do with rifles, shotguns, parking lots, or whatever.

 

[azrocks]

As the guy posting above me said, most USPSA class "B" shooters think they are better than 99.99% of the world. If the world was VERY small that would be true. They must all be "Swedish Champions". I've met very few of them who can get past me with a rifle at distance, a pistol with accuracy, a shotgun with anything. Many of the skills that make you fast on the range make you dead on the battle field or in the parking lot. Having spent 27 years in the military, competed on a national level team, used a gun in a two way shooting event and qualified as an Expert in all five branches of the military, I remain unimpressed.

I'm not arguing with you, and I appreciate your input and experience. I don't, however, see how becoming a proficient action shooter could do anything but greatly improve your chances of a positive outcome in an actual self-defense scenario. Granted - some actions (such as reloading while advancing / without the use of cover) aren't tactically sound - but in a real SD scenario the need to reload even once is exceedingly rare. The most important thing - IMO - is being the first guy to get off an accurate shot. What could possibly be better in this regard than practicing every day (and competing every week) the actions necessary to do so most efficiently? The LAST person I'd want to get in a shoot-out against was someone who's life revolved around putting multiple rounds on target as fast as possible. The way I see it, even a 'D' rated USPSA shooter is going to be in the top 99% of shooters world-wide, especially when that population includes the drug addict with a Hi-Point looking to do your harm.

Granted - one could practice and train daily in the most tactically-correct manner. But who really does? And of those that do, how long does that last? I'm not on a military special-ops team. I don't have the time nor inclination to spend the amount of time necessary to become a 'tactical' shooter if there's no recreational / rewarding component to it. And I doubt I'm alone in that sentiment.

I'd love to be proven wrong, so if you can convince me otherwise it will be well received. But I just can't imagine how action shooting could be anything but a plus in the self-defense department.

 

[MrBorland]

I agree with ny32182 on most points. I'm a huge believer in doing the fundamentals well. I've always had an interest in bullseye shooting, but I didn't need bullseye to work hard on my fundamentals - I made that an important part of every practice session. Besides, every bullseye shooter I've seen in action shooting was sloooowww. They got their hits, to be sure, but they just couldn't "let go", and usually finished DFL. To me, they (dedicated target shooters) just seemed to have a limited (though highly refined) repertoire, whereas I wanted to have a good overall proficiency with firearms. My solution was to shoot IDPA (with a revolver) and High Power Rifle (with an AR15 Service Rifle) in competition. For me, it was a nice broad spectrum, but focused enough so I could do well in both.

FWIW, "marksmanship" is seeing what you need to see, hitting what you need to hit, and doing it when you need to do it. The USPSA GM who hits the A- or B-zone did so because, in less than 3 tenths of a second, they saw the A- or B-zone, took the shot, hit it, and transitioned to another target. The bullseye HM shooter hit the 10-ring because they saw the 10-ring, settled in, cleared their mind, released a clean shot, and hit it. Both are examples of good marksmanship. As someone who was competitive at the Master level in both action and target events, I find characterizations that one takes more or less skill than the other to be based on wishful thinking, and, frankly, ignorance.

 

[MrBorland]

Many of the skills that make you fast on the range make you dead on the battle field or in the parking lot.

The point has been made on gun forums over and over by competitive shooters that gun games aren't SD training, and that if you need SD training, get SD training.

Still, competition improves your shooting, and there's no downside to that. From what I've seen, the proficiency level of most gun owners (including most gun enthusiasts) is downright abysmal. Many who would rely on a fiream for SD seem to me to be dangerously overconfident in their own abilities. Anything you do to improve your shooting and gun handling skills is a big plus, in my book.

 

[azrocks]

Still, competition improves your shooting, and there's no downside to that. From what I've seen, the proficiency level of most gun owners (including most gun enthusiasts) is downright abysmal. Many who would rely on a fiream for SD seem to me to be dangerously overconfident in their own abilities. Anything you do to improve your shooting and gun handling skills is a big plus, in my book.

I've been a gun owner for a very long time. And as a child I was naturally gifted with long-guns. I always thought I was a pretty good shot, and in my circle of friends, I was one of the better ones.

It wasn't until I shot at an IDPA match, much later in life, that I realized just how ridiculously poor my 'skills' really were. And that was under the pressure of nothing more than a timer.

So the way I see it - until I can shoot well under the pressure of nothing more than a timer - getting all 'tactical' is pretty much a waste of time. I've got a long way to go until then.

It's been a very humbling experience realizing how much I really suck

 

[MrBorland]

I always thought I was a pretty good shot, and in my circle of friends, I was one of the better ones.

It wasn't until I shot at an IDPA match, much later in life, that I realized just how ridiculously poor my 'skills' really were.

As noted, competition itself is good for your shooting and gun handling. But competition also expands your vision, so you start to see what "good" is. You can't reach what you can't see or know.

 

[earplug]

I still shoot bullseye and it is a great way to learn fundamentals and relax. Unfortunately it can teach you some strange motor skills that will hurt you in defensive scenarios. How you handle your reloads, magazine retention, malfunction drills and ability to cope with unstable shooting positions are all good skills to practice and maintain. Action type competition will make you a better all round shooter.