Handgunning for whitetails

[MCgunner]

I have shot a couple with a .357 magnum, but I sorta prefer my Contender in .30-30 shooting a 150 Nosler BT at 2100 fps. It sports a 12" hunter barrel and 2x optics. It is quite effective to 200 yards with a good rest, shoots 1.5 MOA with that scope. Some may call that cheating, I call it supper collection.

 

[Hunt480]

S&Wfan, What kind of sight you got on that deer killin 44?

 

[Kernel]

Ruger Bisley SBH in .44 Mag, 240 gr XTP, 30 yd shot.

 

[susquehannaslim]

I'm a big fan of 45 Colt,my plinking loads are 9.5 grains of HS-6 under a 250gr,RNFP.And when I get serious,I load a stout charge of Win 296 under a Hornady 300gr XTP Mag.

 

[ljnowell]

The thing is a lot of these .45 fans always speak too positively of their pet round. In manuals writers claim that rims can be easily ripped off if things get a little sticky with the reloading process. I guess I'm a little skeptical that everything is peaches when loading a .45 colt to near .44 mag velocities. Obviously your selection of guns drops off when looking at the .45 vs the .44 but not a huge deal, the smith mountain gun, redhawk, and blackhawk should all take .45 hot loads. Bullet selection isn't that big of a deal either, you only need so many bullets to do the job. I guess I'd find things more believable if there were some negatives presented to the .45 colt case.

Whats not "believable" about the 45 colt? I guess you can be skeptical about anything you want, but the truth will prove that you are wrong. The 45colt has more internal case volume. You can get more propellant into the case, and have more room for expanding gasses. Thus you can achieve the same velocity as a 44mag load with less pressure. This isnt some kind of voodoo rumor, this has been done for a LOOOOONG time. There is no tearing off of rims with a single action revolver, so thats a moot point. I have loaded mine past 44mag levels and dont have sticky brass or extraction problems.

I'm not sure why you chose to knock us "45 fans" who are "too positive"(whatever the heck that means) but you are wrong in your assumptions, and the manuals you speak of do not trump real world experience, which is all over these forums when dealing with 45 colt.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

The fact that you can get the .44 mag velocity with less pressure is what intrigues me about the .45 Colt. The question is, where can you get load data for these loads? Is it published anywhere, or is it just real world experience like you mentioned? The small Hodgdon manual that I have here at the house lists drastic differences in velocity between the two, as much as 750 fps with 200 grain bullets. It lists the .44 mag as high as 1800 fps. The fastest .45 Colt load listed is 1067 with 200 grainers. The pressures are way lower in the .45 though, 37,800 cup in the .44 and only 13,600 cup in the .45 Colt.

The more I read this the more I think it might be cowboy loads for the .45, though it doesn't say that. With these loads and a 200 grain bullet it's only listed at about 50-75 fps faster than a .45 acp. So I would like to know where to get the data for the "Ruger only" loads. Thanks for the info and pics. Keep it coming.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The question is, where can you get load data for these loads? Is it published anywhere, or is it just real world experience like you mentioned?

Go here: http://www.hodgdon.com/

Hodgdon has dozens of "ruger only" loads developed under laboratory conditions with pressure-tested data.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Wow that was fast. Thanks Vern.

 

[tango2echo]

You can typically find FOUR levels of .45LC load data: Cowboy Action loads designed for older guns and blackpowder conversions, Standard Pressure loads suitible for all "modern" guns, Ruger/Contender loads suitible for those handguns only, and finally "Carbine Rifle" data for use in rifles only. Most powder manufatures have websites for data, but I prefer a selection of reloading manuals.

Factory ammo is available in "Cowboy" and "Standard Pressure". Most of the SP loads are plenty hot enough for whitetails.

 

[ljnowell]

Most of the SP loads are plenty hot enough for whitetails.

Yep, in many cases a 255gr lead slug at 950fps will take most things down. It sure is a lot of fun to load those Ruger loads and launch them though.

 

[cz85cmbt]

I'm not knocking .45 fans pal. Don't get so yourself twisted over there. I know that .45's can actually be loaded to .44mag velocity and a huge part of that is increased diameter. If you take the same powder charge in a straight wall case, increase diameter, keep bullet weight the same, pressure will drop and velocity will be the same (along with some other variables). Reloading manuals talk about the reloading process not the loading of SA revolvers. The rim is small and thin on the .45 and it can be torn off during reloading. I just would think an old case, that was thin like many blackpowder cartridges would have reduced brass life with 20,000-25,000 psi loads. Not saying .45 guys are wrong, I'm just asking them to be completely forth coming about any reloading issues.

 

[ljnowell]

I'm not knocking .45 fans pal. Don't get so yourself twisted over there. I know that .45's can actually be loaded to .44mag velocity and a huge part of that is increased diameter. If you take the same powder charge in a straight wall case, increase diameter, keep bullet weight the same, pressure will drop and velocity will be the same (along with some other variables). Reloading manuals talk about the reloading process not the loading of SA revolvers. The rim is small and thin on the .45 and it can be torn off during reloading. I just would think an old case, that was thin like many blackpowder cartridges would have reduced brass life with 20,000-25,000 psi loads. Not saying .45 guys are wrong, I'm just asking them to be completely forth coming about any reloading issues.

No one is getting twisted, but that aside, The 45 colt having issues with the rim is when loaded into a DA revolver with hot loads. Then the case gets a little sticky the ejector has problems and will jump the rims or sometimes rip them, especially if using ancient old brass, ie. balloon head cases. These havent been in production for a long time though. In a single action ruger or I believe Freedom Arms makes some high strength SAs also this isnt really a problem. The larger volume makes it a reloaders "pet cartridge" as you said before. When you can launch a bigger bullet at the same speed with less pressure you are in a win-win situation. When its not a win-win is if you do not reload. Commercial made "Ruger Only" loads are not cheap. comperable 44Mag isnt either, but is still cheaper.

My experience comes from reloading for my Ruger Blackhawk, using 2400 and H110 loaded at levels of 30K or so. I have clocked velocity of a 300gr slug at 1200fps. Thats cooking right along and way over the SAAMI spec. I have pushed 255gr SWCs much harder than that. There is nothing unsafe about this, just dont get those rounds stuck in a SAA or a clone. It would be ugly, real quick. Linebaugh wrote an article a long time ago that is on the net still where they tested various guns and the ruger cyl was able to take an extreme amount of pressure before failure, enough so that at 30K CUP you still have a lot of fudge room.

ETA:
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

The Myth of The "Weak" .45 Colt Case

There has been so much written about the "weak" .45 Colt case. This probably started when The Grand Old Man of the Shooting game, Elmer Keith made this statement in His excellent book Sixguns. "While shooting a 300 gr 45/90 rifle bullet in my .45 Colt SAA with 35 grains of black. Finally a weak .45 Colt case head blew off with this load. The gas blew the loading gate off the gun breaking its shank and cutting through the flesh of my trigger finger. From this experience I decided the bullet was a bit heavy for the thin cases and thin chamber walls of the cylinders. I cut one band and groove from the mould leaving it to cast a 260 gr flat point bullet. This worked very well with 40 grains of black. It was a very good game killer and flatter in trajectory curve than the 300 grain slug with 35 grains of black" ( Sixguns by Keith page 129)

I have no doubt in my mind the weak case came from corrosion due to shooting corrosive primers and black powder. Elmer was also shooting old balloon head cases, not the solid head we have today. The fact that he said, Quote: a weak case,, not, finally one of the WEAK cases let go, means a singular case, not a common recurrence. Modern writers often picture a fired .45 Colt case with a noticeable bulge just above the web of the case. They continually protest the .45 Colt case is "weak". The only thing weak is their limited research on the subject. The cartridge case in any firearm is simply a gasket to seal the hot gases away from the shooter and the firearm. Yes, it's critical that this component be of best quality and design. But overall the firearm itself contains the pressure. The reason the .45 Colt case bulges is the chambers in NEARLY ALL modern .45 Colt chambered arms are grossly oversize. The case simply has to stretch beyond its elastic limit to reach the support of the chambers of the firearm. The modern .45 Colt case measures .476 diameter at the case head web area. Most modern chambers run from .486 upwards to .490. This means the new case has to expand from .010 to .014 to seal the chamber and be supported by the firearm. It is then reseized and the process repeated till the case fails. And fail it will, and more than likely prematurely due to overworking. Modern MAGNUM brass will do the same if fired in too large a chamber. Shooting a .44 magnum round in .45 colt chamber (NOTE; THIS IS A PRACTICE I DEFINITELY DO NOT RECOMMEND) will bear this out. Cartridge brass does not have the tensile strength of modern steels. ITS MERELY A GASKET.

Read the article, it explains way better than I can here.

 

[AStone]

Ok, that does it.

Because of this thread, and this one, I've decided .45 Colt
- oh, pardon me, .45 Long Colt - is right for me.

[Added by edit: sig line now reflects said decision.]

Now, it's just a matter of which revolver:

Blackhawk, Redhawk, or some new, super version of one of them.

All I can say for sure now is, 5.5" barrel.

Dammit. I should really quit hanging out with you people.

 

[dairycreek]

I have never handgun hunted for white tails but, as an Oregonian I have done a lot for both coastal blacktail and the larger mule deer. I am an avid handloader and the idea that a 45 LC being loaded to a greater energy level than that of a 44 magnum is really not too hard to do. Although I like the 45 LC a lot I have always found that a well constructed 44 magnum did the job quite well thank you. If you don't want to load 45LC take a look at Buffalo Bore.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=8

They have some excellent ammo which will never by mistaken for Coyboy Action stuff. Once again, if you opt not to load, take a look at Garrett Ammo for 44 mag. Absolutely great.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp


A word of caution though. Make sure that your handgun is strong enough for the ammo chosen. My personal choice is the Ruger Redhawk which leaves nothing to question about strength.

 

[DWFan]

Quote from tango2echo:
"You can typically find FOUR levels of .45LC load data: Cowboy Action loads designed for older guns and blackpowder conversions, Standard Pressure loads suitable for all "modern" guns, Ruger/Contender loads suitable for those handguns only, and finally "Carbine Rifle" data for use in rifles only. Most powder manufacturers have websites for data, but I prefer a selection of reloading manuals."

There is a fifth level that is seldom mentioned; the .45 Colt loaded to .45 ACP pressure levels. This is an increase from the 14 kpsi of the standard Colt to 18-20 kpsi. These loads are milder (both in muzzle blast and recoil) and far easier on both the revolver and the shooter than the full-power "Ruger/Contender" loads listed by Hodgdons, but are still very effective on game. The Keith #454424 255gr SWC is an excellent choice here and can reach 1150 fps with a 7.5" barrel.
A very good standard pressure load is the RCBS 45-270-SAA over 7.5gr of Titegroup with approx. 1000 fps in a 7.5" barrel.

 

[S&Wfan]

Hunt480 asked:

S&Wfan, What kind of sight you got on that deer killin 44?

Hi,

It is a first generation Holosight, back when Bushnell debuted them . . . probably about 12 years ago or so.

- It has never lost its zero,
- Four clicks @ 100yds. to move the POI one inch . . . just like a fine scope
- Very repeatable clicks when used in silhouette shooting.
- Match-proven too in action handgun matches.
- Twice I've dropped three whitetails in mere seconds . . . I couldn't do this with a scoped rifle!
- Sub-2" groups at 50 yards, supported . . . always. Sub-2 3/4" groups at 50 yards, standing/unsupported.
- Incredible in deep Georgia woods in the ease to take whitetails even in tough situations.

I've taken a lot of deer with this rig since the time this Bushnell Holosight was mounted on that M29-5!

Today, the license to make Holosights is held by EOTech, and they've improved on 'em and made them better . . . longer battery life, etc.

 

[MCgunner]

A .454 will fire any .45 colt, ya know.

Factory ammo is available in "Cowboy" and "Standard Pressure". Most of the SP loads are plenty hot enough for whitetails.

But, then there's Buffalo Bore for non-handloaders. Me, i roll my own. I have a .45 barrel for the contender and a 4 5/8" Blackhawk and like 'em both. I don't shoot the fire breathers a lot, though. But, they're fun now and then.

Check this load out..... http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=38

 

[Hunt480]

Thanks S&Wfan,

- Sub-2" groups at 50 yards, supported . . . always. Sub-2 3/4" groups at 50 yards, standing/unsupported.

I been trying set me up a rig like that for awhile,so far nothing has held up to the recoil. Thanks for the information and thats good shootin.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Well, I did it. I got tired of looking for one used and broke down and ordered a new one from a local dealer. I found plenty of .44s, but I was really set on a .45 Colt. I ordered a 7 1/2" Blackhawk today and should be able to pick it up in two to three days. I'm like a kid at Christmas. I can't wait to get it and put some lead downrange. The price was a pleasant surprise. Brand new, $449. That seemed very reasonable. Anyway, in a couple of days, I'll be the newest member of the .45 Colt group. I'll post pics.

 

[Dolph92]

You will like that unit. I have had a Redhawk 44mag for about 7 years now. Havent used it a lot but did take a whitetail when I first got it. I was not able to use a rifle due to injury and my Buds helped me in my stand. Drove a little buck past me and POW didnt go far when a 240 Grain HP passed through it. As far as iron sights vs scope. Well I have always used the iron sights that came with the gun and practiced a lot. I was able to drop this buck at about 70 yards with with my left hand as my right arm was in a sling

 

[ljnowell]

Well, I did it. I got tired of looking for one used and broke down and ordered a new one from a local dealer. I found plenty of .44s, but I was really set on a .45 Colt. I ordered a 7 1/2" Blackhawk today and should be able to pick it up in two to three days. I'm like a kid at Christmas. I can't wait to get it and put some lead downrange. The price was a pleasant surprise. Brand new, $449. That seemed very reasonable. Anyway, in a couple of days, I'll be the newest member of the .45 Colt group. I'll post pics.

GREAT CHOICE! Thats my exact same gun. I do in fact love it. Now you need to get ahold of missouri bullet and order some of the 300gr LTC and some of the 255 LSWC. You can order the SWCs in a softer for plinking or harder for serious work alloy. Great bullets, next to no leading, cheap.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

FINALLY!!!!! Can't wait to start shooting. I've got the dies, brass, and bullets on the way. Thanks for all the advice and tips.

 

[flipajig]

great looking gun.. congrats.I shoot the SBH in 44mag and i turn my hard cast into HP. Im looking for the bullet to expand some. it works great..
ive shot them in to a sand filled box and you can tell the difference between the HP and the flat nose.im running them around 1250 rpms. thats my 2 cents worth..

 

[snooperman]

45 long colt and .357 magnum 180 gr ...

using my Ruger Blackhawk . Also have killed many on my farmland with Dan Wesson 445 supermag .

 

[44-henry]

A few years back I loaded up some 45 Colt cartridges with Goex 3fg (about 37 grains is what I was getting into the case) behind a 250 grain LRNFP and out of my Uberti 1873 with a 7.5" barrel I was getting around 1050 fps. I shot a doe that year with this same load and revolver and it punched through both shoulders and as far as I know is still going. As far as I'm concerned that would be pretty respectable performance from any revolver, let alone one representative of that vintage.