handloading subsonic .357 for Handi Rifle

[Kusarigama]

I have a .357 Handi Rifle on its way and will be getting the barrel chopped and threaded for descrete hog and 'yote erradication. I have 100 180grn Hornady XTP jhp's and a pound of Red Dot.

Does anyone have a good recipe handy for 900 fps out of a 16" barrel?

 

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

Consider dropping to .38 special brass and data, the smaller case capacity will make pressures more even in low-powered loads.

KR

 

[Lorenzo Rojo]

I would start with 3.0 grains of Red Dot. That should get around 700 fps from a six inch pistol barrel. Using the 25 fps per inch rule-of-thumb adds about 250 fps for a guesstimate of 950 fps. +1 on the recommendation on staying with the .38 brass and load data though specific data for 180 bullets and Red Dot may be hard to come by since Red Dot is not generally used for heavier bullets in .38.

 

[Jim Watson]

Check the barrel after every shot, a light load, a jacketed bullet, and a long barrel are a recipe for stuck bullets... or stuck bullet jackets. I saw that latter happen. The core actually hit the target so the shooter did not think twice about firing the next shot which bulged his barrel.

 

[Maj Dad]

The speed of sound is a bit over 1100 fps, so if you want subsonic versus "quiet," load accordingly. I use subsonic CCI 22s to shoot tree rats because they are very accurate in my rifle, but they are not particularly quiet. The difference is that there is no sonic boom/crack from exceeding the speed of sound; the sound of the round firing is not changed (unless it is suppressed, which is the real advantage of subsonics). If you're looking for quiet, you'll have to use either lighter loads of fast burning powders and/or a longer barrel to burn more of it, but it will still be audible. If you're serious about quiet, you will have to suppress a 38/357. I would load a 180 grain hard lead slug at close to 1100 fps for hogs; they aren't easily impressed by light loads. Penn Bullets ( http://www.pennbullets.com/38/38-caliber.html ) sells a 180 and also a 230 gr Thunderhead - if you want to get their attention, those will do it.

 

[W.E.G.]

+1 on heavy lead bullets for low-velocity loads.

No way a jacketed .357 bullet is going to expand anyway at under 1000 FPS.

 

[Claude Clay]

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/

might help ua to compare and work up a formula.

 

[rcmodel]

2002 Alliant powder handbook lists .357 Mag - 180 grain JFP, 5.3 grains Red Dot giving 930 FPS at 33,200 PSI.

DO NOT reduce more then 10% (4.8 grains) for a starting load, or stuck bullets in a long barrel are a distinct possibility.

rc

 

[Kusarigama]

Would I load to 357 overall length? I have a Lee Loader that I just got and am not sure if I can adjust length.

RC, what barrel length is that load for?

Thanks for the replies

 

[Float Pilot]

Use Trail Boss.

 

[rcmodel]

Would I load to 357 overall length? I have a Lee Loader that I just got and am not sure if I can adjust length.

The XTP has a crimp cannulure. Load to whatever the length is when the case is crimped in the cannulure.
That is the correct OAL.

RC, what barrel length is that load for?

5.7" handgun.

rc

 

[ThomasT]

I load 32 mag rounds with a 76gr lead bullet and just a couple of grains of Titegroup in a 20" marlin and get about 930fps. Those loads are as quiet as CCI CB22s.

If you will use a lead bullet and a light load like 3-3.5grs of red dot and leave your barrel at 22" long you may not need the suppressor. One guy wrote long ago about heavy bullets and fast powders and said they are like the door on a bank vault. You can push it closed but you can't kick it closed. Thats what you are trying to do with a 180gr bullet and a fast powder like red dot.

If using a 180gr jacketed bullet use a full power load. It won't expand at 900fps anyway. And there is a darn good chance it will stick in the barrel after it gets a little dirty. Lead bullets are the way to go for slow loads.

 

[Clark]

For quietly killing large varmints with a 22" barrel handi rifle, I have settled on 440 fps for the BB gun sound.

540 fps sounds like a loud pellet gun.

In order to get power AND quiet AND accuracy, I used my lathe to make a case capacity reducer.

 

[zxcvbob]

How about 230 grain wadcutters? (I think the brand name is Thunderheads.) Anyway, Red Dot is a pretty good choice; you can't even get to a supersonic round with the bullet you have.

Use about 4.5 grains. Friction really eats up your velocity here with jacketed bullets (after about 6" the bullet is losing velocity instead of gaining):

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 WARNING: Table produced by not verified Ballistics Calculations! Check results
always against loading data of current reloading manuals! Input data and results
may be invalid or wrong! The use of this data for loading ammunition can cause,
directly or indirectly, serious injury to personnel and material. No responsibi-
  lity is implied and THE USER MUST ASSUME THE ENTIRE RISK OF USING THE DATA.
               QuickLOAD© V.3.3 Interior BallisticsV.3.3 #531085
            © Copyright 1987-2008 - H.Broemel, Babenhausen, Germany
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Case capacity and propellant properties may vary considerably from lot to lot!

**** Input data:                         Date: 6-Jun-2010     Time: 17:19:53
Cartridge................. = .357 Magnum (SAAMI)
Projectile type........... = .357, 180, Hornady HP/XTP 35771 with flatbase

Max.avg.pressure(Piezo SAA)= 35000 psi   Shot start / init pressure = 2176 psi
Projectile weight      (gr)= 180         Groove caliber         (in)= 0.357
Length of cartridge    (in)= 1.590       Length of case         (in)= 1.290
Case capacity(Grains Water)= 25.60       Length of projectile   (in)= 0.795
Length of barrel       (in)= 16.500
**** Values calculated:
Seating depth          (in)= 0.495       Volume displaced   (gn H2O)= 12.53
Comb.chamber volume(gn H2O)= 13.07       Projectile travel      (in)= 15.705
**** Input data:
Propellant type........... = Alliant RED DOT
Charge weight..........(gr)= 4.7         Load density......(g/cu.cm)= 0.359
Heat of Explosion  (cal/lb)= 491649      Ratio of spec. heats cp/cv = 1.219
Solid density    (gr/cu.in)= 414.7       Weighting factor...........= 0.8
Burning rate factor Ba(1/s)= 3.423       Pro-/degressivity factor a = 6.689
Burning limit ......... z1 = 0.2         Combust.Chamber Vb(ft³)= 2.996404E-5
Factor.................. b = 1.884       X-S.Area of Bore A(ft²)= 6.735199E-4
Bulk density     (gr/cu.in)= 115.8       Projectile mass mp (lb)= 2.571429E-2
Loading ratio           (%)= 78.4        Projectile travel x(ft)= 1.308727E+0

**** Results calculated:
Maximum pressure ........ = 34912 psi    Way of projectile at Pmax = 0.22 in
Muzzle velocity  ......Ve = 928 fps      Muzzle pressure .......Pe = 796 psi
Project. energy at muzzle = 344 ft.lbs   Fraction of powder burnt  = 100  %
Projectile travel time from 10% Pmax to muzzle = 1.57 ms

WARNING: Near Maximum Average Pressure - tolerances can cause dangerous pressures !
Real maximum of pressure inside barrel.
End of combustion before the projectile passes muzzle.

                 Table of progress of computed firing process:

NR.:          x(in)         z (%)         v (fps)       p (psi)       t (ms)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  0             0.000         3.28           0.0           2176        0.0000
  1             0.000         3.42           0.6           2270        0.0009
  2             0.000         3.57           1.3           2365        0.0032
  3             0.000         3.78           2.2           2507        0.0062
  4             0.000         4.03           3.3           2672        0.0098
  5             0.000         4.35           4.7           2884        0.0142
  6             0.001         4.77           6.5           3153        0.0192
  7             0.001         5.29           8.7           3491        0.0247
  8             0.002         5.90          11.4           3891        0.0307
  9             0.003         6.66          14.5           4375        0.0370
 10             0.004         7.57          18.2           4956        0.0437
 11             0.006         8.67          22.6           5651        0.0507
 12             0.008        10.01          27.8           6482        0.0578
 13             0.011        11.62          33.8           7472        0.0651
 14             0.014        13.57          40.9           8651        0.0725
 15             0.018        15.94          49.3          10058        0.0800
 16             0.023        18.82          58.9          11725        0.0874
 17             0.029        22.32          70.2          13707        0.0948
 18             0.033        24.89          78.1          15135        0.0995
 19             0.036        26.39          82.7          15929        0.1025
 20             0.039        27.87          87.2          16703        0.1054
 21             0.042        29.33          91.8          17459        0.1082
 22             0.045        30.78          96.3          18195        0.1107
 23             0.048        32.22         100.9          18913        0.1132
 24             0.050        33.64         105.4          19613        0.1155
 25             0.053        35.04         110.0          20294        0.1178
 26             0.056        36.43         114.5          20957        0.1199
 27             0.059        37.80         119.1          21602        0.1220
 28             0.062        39.16         123.6          22230        0.1240
 29             0.065        40.51         128.2          22840        0.1259
 30             0.068        41.84         132.7          23432        0.1278
 31             0.071        43.15         137.3          24008        0.1296
 32             0.074        44.45         141.8          24567        0.1313
 33             0.077        45.74         146.4          25109        0.1330
 34             0.080        47.00         150.9          25634        0.1347
 35             0.083        48.26         155.5          26143        0.1363
 36             0.086        49.50         160.0          26636        0.1379
 37             0.089        50.72         164.6          27112        0.1395
 38             0.092        51.93         169.1          27573        0.1410
 39             0.095        53.13         173.7          28018        0.1425
 40             0.098        54.30         178.2          28447        0.1440
 41             0.101        55.47         182.8          28861        0.1454
 42             0.104        56.62         187.3          29260        0.1468
 43             0.107        57.75         191.9          29644        0.1482
 44             0.111        58.87         196.4          30012        0.1496
 45             0.114        59.97         201.0          30367        0.1510
 46             0.117        61.06         205.5          30706        0.1523
 47             0.120        62.14         210.1          31031        0.1536
 48             0.124        63.20         214.6          31342        0.1549
 49             0.127        64.24         219.2          31638        0.1562
 50             0.130        65.27         223.7          31921        0.1575
 51             0.134        66.28         228.3          32189        0.1587
 52             0.137        67.28         232.8          32445        0.1600
 53             0.141        68.27         237.4          32686        0.1612
 54             0.144        69.23         241.9          32914        0.1625
 55             0.148        70.19         246.5          33129        0.1637
 56             0.152        71.13         251.0          33331        0.1649
 57             0.155        72.05         255.6          33520        0.1661
 58             0.159        72.96         260.1          33697        0.1673
 59             0.163        73.85         264.7          33860        0.1685
 60             0.166        74.73         269.2          34011        0.1696
 61             0.170        75.60         273.8          34150        0.1708
 62             0.174        76.44         278.3          34277        0.1720
 63             0.178        77.28         282.9          34392        0.1731
 64             0.182        78.10         287.4          34495        0.1743
 65             0.186        78.90         292.0          34586        0.1754
 66             0.190        79.69         296.5          34666        0.1766
 67             0.194        80.46         301.1          34734        0.1777
 68             0.198        81.22         305.6          34791        0.1789
 69             0.202        81.96         310.2          34837        0.1800
 70             0.207        82.69         314.7          34872        0.1811
 71             0.211        83.41         319.2          34896        0.1823
 72             0.215        84.10         323.8          34909        0.1834
 73             0.217        84.45         326.1          34912        0.1840
 74             0.218        84.53         326.6          34912        0.1841
 75             0.218        84.58         326.9          34912        0.1842
 76             0.219        84.62         327.2          34912        0.1842
 77             0.219        84.66         327.5          34912        0.1843
 78             0.223        85.33         332.0          34907        0.1854
 79             0.228        85.99         336.6          34891        0.1866
 80             0.232        86.63         341.1          34865        0.1877
 81             0.237        87.25         345.7          34829        0.1888
 82             0.242        87.87         350.2          34783        0.1900
 83             0.247        88.46         354.8          34727        0.1911
 84             0.251        89.04         359.3          34662        0.1922
 85             0.256        89.61         363.9          34588        0.1933
 86             0.261        90.16         368.4          34504        0.1945
 87             0.266        90.70         373.0          34412        0.1956
 88             0.271        91.22         377.5          34310        0.1967
 89             0.277        91.72         382.1          34199        0.1979
 90             0.282        92.21         386.6          34080        0.1990
 91             0.287        92.69         391.2          33953        0.2002
 92             0.293        93.15         395.7          33817        0.2013
 93             0.298        93.60         400.3          33672        0.2025
 94             0.304        94.03         404.8          33520        0.2036
 95             0.309        94.44         409.4          33360        0.2048
 96             0.315        94.84         413.9          33191        0.2060
 97             0.321        95.23         418.5          33016        0.2071
 98             0.327        95.60         423.0          32832        0.2083
 99             0.333        95.96         427.6          32642        0.2095
100             0.339        96.30         432.1          32444        0.2107
101             0.346        96.62         436.7          32239        0.2119
102             0.352        96.93         441.2          32027        0.2131
103             0.358        97.23         445.8          31808        0.2143
104             0.365        97.51         450.3          31583        0.2155
105             0.372        97.78         454.9          31351        0.2168
106             0.378        98.03         459.4          31113        0.2180
107             0.385        98.26         464.0          30869        0.2192
108             0.392        98.48         468.5          30618        0.2205
109             0.399        98.69         473.1          30362        0.2218
110             0.407        98.88         477.6          30100        0.2230
111             0.414        99.06         482.2          29832        0.2243
112             0.422        99.22         486.7          29559        0.2256
113             0.429        99.36         491.3          29280        0.2269
114             0.437        99.49         495.8          28996        0.2283
115             0.445        99.61         500.4          28707        0.2296
116             0.453        99.71         504.9          28414        0.2309
117             0.461        99.79         509.5          28115        0.2323
118             0.470        99.86         514.0          27812        0.2337
119             0.478        99.92         518.6          27504        0.2350
120             0.487        99.96         523.1          27192        0.2364
121             0.496        99.98         527.7          26876        0.2379
122             0.505        99.99         532.2          26556        0.2393
123             0.507       100.00         533.1          26496        0.2396
124             0.821       100.00         649.5          18547        0.2838
125             1.135       100.00         722.7          14080        0.3220
126             1.449       100.00         775.0          11247        0.3569
127             1.763       100.00         815.0           9304        0.3899
128             2.077       100.00         847.1           7897        0.4214
129             2.392       100.00         873.6           6834        0.4518
130             2.706       100.00         896.0           6005        0.4814
131             3.020       100.00         915.3           5343        0.5103
132             3.334       100.00         931.8           4803        0.5386
133             3.648       100.00         946.2           4354        0.5665
134             3.962       100.00         958.4           3977        0.5940
135             4.276       100.00         968.8           3655        0.6211
136             4.590       100.00         977.3           3377        0.6480
137             4.904       100.00         984.0           3136        0.6747
138             5.218       100.00         989.0           2924        0.7013
139             5.533       100.00         992.4           2737        0.7277
140             5.847       100.00         994.6           2571        0.7540
141             6.161       100.00         995.5           2422        0.7803
142             6.475       100.00         996.1           2288        0.8066
143             6.789       100.00         996.3           2167        0.8329
144             7.103       100.00         996.2           2057        0.8592
145             7.417       100.00         995.8           1957        0.8854
146             7.731       100.00         995.1           1865        0.9117
147             8.045       100.00         994.2           1781        0.9380
148             8.359       100.00         993.1           1704        0.9644
149             8.673       100.00         991.7           1633        0.9908
150             8.988       100.00         990.2           1566        1.0172
151             9.302       100.00         988.5           1505        1.0436
152             9.616       100.00         986.6           1448        1.0701
153             9.930       100.00         984.6           1394        1.0967
154            10.244       100.00         982.4           1344        1.1233
155            10.558       100.00         980.1           1298        1.1500
156            10.872       100.00         977.7           1254        1.1767
157            11.186       100.00         975.1           1212        1.2035
158            11.500       100.00         972.5           1174        1.2304
159            11.814       100.00         969.7           1137        1.2574
160            12.128       100.00         966.8           1102        1.2844
161            12.443       100.00         963.8           1070        1.3115
162            12.757       100.00         960.7           1039        1.3387
163            13.071       100.00         957.6           1009        1.3660
164            13.385       100.00         954.3            981        1.3934
165            13.699       100.00         951.0            955        1.4209
166            14.013       100.00         947.5            929        1.4484
167            14.327       100.00         944.0            905        1.4761
168            14.641       100.00         940.4            882        1.5039
169            14.955       100.00         936.8            860        1.5318
170            15.269       100.00         933.1            840        1.5598
171            15.584       100.00         929.3            819        1.5879
172            15.705       100.00         927.8            812        1.5988

Muzzle exit

 

[zxcvbob]

If you want to get closer to 1100 fps, use Bullseye or Unique instead of RD.

 

[CraigC]

180gr XTP's will be a waste of a good jacketed bullet. I would switch to cast bullets in the 158-173gr range and use .38Spl handgun data running 700-800fps. Acutally the 158gr swaged SWC/HP would be good. Speer #14 lists 3.0gr (standard pressure) to 3.8gr (+P pressure) for 720-850fps. Which should yield around 1000fps from a rifle.

 

[Kusarigama]

zBob, thanks for the data!

The Lee Loader only has a scoop that holds a max 5 grn. Of Red Dot. My digi can't measure 10ths. Can you run the program with 180 xtp and 5 grn as well as a +200grn lead bullet that others have mentioned with 5 grn Red Dot.

Not too worried about expansion at <1k fps. I have 100 XTP's and a pound of Red Dot and want to use it before I buy more powder.

For primers I am to use small pistol ones. Should I use small magnum (maybe obvious?).

In addition, I have 100 100grn cast lead bullets that are .356 diameter. Can you plug that in for a 16" barrel? I could use these for descrete liquidation and the 180grn. For serious work?

 

[zxcvbob]

5.0 grains of Red Dot is too much with 180 grain bullets, unless you can seat them out to 1.65" OAL. (that's way over the maximum length, but maybe the HandyRifle can handle it. The pressure with 1.59" OAL is be about 39000 psi.

You'd be a lot better off using 158 grain bullets; with jacketed bullets they'll be subsonic due to friction. Cast bullets will be supersonic, barely.

You really need to get a good scale. You can weigh each charge, or make your own powder dipper from a spent 9mm or .38SPL or .40S&W case and a piece of wire for a handle (cut down the case until it dips the right amount of powder)

 

[Kusarigama]

I'll be buying a new scale today.


What about the 100grn cast lead? Maybe 1.8 gr. Of Red Dot? Can you consult your thinking machine again?

 

[Ed Harris]

190-grain. Hunter's Supply cast lead flatnose and 4.3 grs. Bullseye in .357 cases, crimped in normal crimp groove at 1.58" OAL Velocity about 1000 f.p.s. from Marlin 1894 cowboy, quiet and accurate. Agree you won't get any expansion of jacketed bullets at subsonic velocities. Go for the heaviest bullet with the biggest flat nose you can get.

 

[MachIVshooter]

You mention the barrel is to be threaded.....are you gonna use a supressor? If so , I'd steer clear of lead pills.

If not, heavy cast bullets are the way to go. With the mentioned 230 gr. bullet, at a sedate 900 FPS, you're still producing over 400 FPE. The momentum of that long pill is gonna push right on through a 'yote no problem.

 

[Ranb]

If you live in one of the 37 states that allow silencers, then they really work well to reduce noise. I shoot subsonic 300 whisper in 16 and 18 inch barrels; they are way too loud for shooting without hearing protection unless the silencer is attached. The only unsuppressed rifle/ammo combo I have used that is hearing safe without a silencer is a 20 inch rifle with 22 CB ammo.

Using 357 cast ammo through a silencer will gunk it up fast, faster than 22lr. Only do this if you have a can you can take apart. Any 9mm silencer should work well with subsonic 357, but better ask the manufacturer first. The full powered stuff will probably wreck the can unless it was designed with subgun use in mind.

You wil really need a chronograph to ensure you are getting 1000-1050 fps and not going supersonic or pooping out at 600 fps. I would avoid 38 special brass as this will force the bullet jump farther than it needs to engage the rifling. The fast pistol powders will still give you consistant velocities in the larger 357 case. I would load up to at least 1000 fps as past 100 yards your bullet starts going down hill fast, and past 200 yards you really need to know your distance to the target well to ensure a hit.

Ranb

 

[pbhome71]

180gr LaserCast bullet is another choice, if you are looking for non-jacket bullet.

I loaded some of this for my Marlin. Usually at normal 357 pressure. Have not tried sub-sonic load on this bullet, yet.

 

[Kusarigama]

Thanks all so far.

I have 100 of both 100gr LSWC and 180gr XTP.

I will be shooting the subsonic loads at less than 100 yards as I have some Buffalo Bore 180gr and LeverEvolution rounds for ranges and creatures that would require it.

I originally enquired about subsonic XTP because I have 100 of them. Through the advice of ya'll I may just load them faster.

Does anyone have any load data for the 100gr. LSWC in a .38 spl case or 357 case using Red Dot? I have 50 spl cases and I'd like to use up the 1 lb. of Red Dot that I have because I cannot justify buying more powder until I use it up.

Thanks

 

[ThomasT]

If you look at the Alliant manual you will notice that Red Dot and Bullseye will almost be a match on charges. With your 100gr bullet there is no data that I have. The 148gr bullet will use a starting load of 3grs on up. You will be safe using data for a heavier bullet just not the other way around.

I would start with 3grs and work up. Probably no more than 4.5grs. You will have to be the judge when pressure is getting too high. I bet 3.5grs would be a safe fun load. With that light of a bullet you don't have a lot of weight to help the powder burn. Your velocities may be erratic.

It also won't hurt to buy more powder. Nothing wrong with having an assortment to choose from. I think I have around 15-18 different powders. They all have their place. You might also get some 158gr lead bullets. The 38 and 357 were built with these weights in mind. Your Red Dot will work wonders with those heavier bullets. Plus there is tested data for red dot with them.