Hangfire!

[jr_roosa]

So, I found a new way to scare myself.

M1 Garand CMP Special Grade

HXP brass, 1x fired, crimp removed
Win LR Primers
46gr Win 748
150 Grain Herters spire point bullets

3 out of about 30 hangfired. One was about 2 seconds, one was 5 seconds, the last one was 12 seconds! I was just thinking "I wonder when I can clear the action without..." BANG!

I've shot about 200 of this recipe without a problem. It was about 100deg, so the cold wasn't a problem. This load goes about 2600fps by my chrony. It cycles the action fine with ejection at 3:00.

I check powder levels every time with a bright light, my measure throws +/- 0.1 grains with this powder, the rest of the pound had no problems in this rifle or my .30-30.

Any ideas what might have happened with this batch? I'd really like to avoid this problem in the future.

-J.

 

[Palehorseman]

Hesitation hangfires can often create very dangerous pressures, I would have stopped using that load at the first hangfire. Just me, but I would stick to either H-4895 or IMR-4895 powder in the M-1 Garand, but some guys like 4064.

Also milspec primers, I think CCI makes some.

 

[Oyeboten]

I gues the old 'Count to Ten' Rule also means one best count s-l-o-w-l-y.

Wow...12 Seconds is a long time.


What was the Powder you had used for these?

 

[jcwit]

By the burn rate charts you seem to be in the right area for powder, with that said I'd switch to 4895 which is designed for the Garand.

 

[fguffey]

You will never know what caused the delay, you left out all the controls, next time use two different primers, load 50 cases with your favorite primer then load 50 with a primer you do not like (for what ever reason).



With out a safety margin because of the marginal rifle, the 30/40 Krag, I tested a Krag with ammo furnished before it went to the next of kin. I had 40 rounds of Remington in the green box, I chambered one, pulled the trigger, nothing but a click, 10 minutes later I opened the receiver and removed the dud with the primer protruding from the back of the case, the primer worked, the powder in the rear of the case was caked solid, the powder in the front was still loose grains. I pulled down 39 cases, some of the cases had caked powder in the rear others had caked powder in the front.



At the range I am never desperate for something to shoot so my day at the range is never a waste, back to the caked powder in the front in a marginal rifle, had I continued to pull the trigger on the cases with caked powder and tried to fire one with the powder caked in front AND the primer worked and ignited the powder in the rear of the case there would have been no place for the expanding gases to go because of the obstruction of the caked powder, delay fire can result in high pressure as the man said.



I do not know what caused your delay in firing, if it happened to me with my reloading I would suspect I picked up a/some bad habits as in being obsessive in case prep etc.. Your primers worked, because you do not use a control you can not rule out the primers, the cases because of bad habits could have been contaminated causing the powder to burn slowly in the rear, the primer when ignited will/should clear the flash hole.



I questioned the ammo for the Krag and was told the person that loaded the ammo wrote the book?? After pulling the bullets and scraping the powder out of the cases, I found the cases as marginal as the rifle.


If the caked powder in the rear of the case ignited and burned slowely it could have acted as a fuse and cause a delay in firing, the gases should cause smoke to escape past the primer, just a guess.

F. Guffey

 

[Randy1911]

How did you clean the brass to remove the lube? About 25 years ago I had a batch that hang fired. I was using TriChlor to rinse the brass to remove the lube (it dried very quickly). A friend brough me a jug of it he got from work. He did not clean the jug he put it in. It still had a little of the former liquid in it. My delay was 1 - 1/2 second but it scared me. Just long enought to hear a click and then BOOM. After getiting rid of the jug, no more problems.

 

[Oyeboten]

Contaminants effecting/degrading the Primer of course, could do it, even if the Powder was fine in it's own right.

 

[Maj Dad]

I think hangfires are usually associated with primers, but you cannot be certain. I bought some 1912 eek vintage 7x57 Mauser from a country junk shop in the early 70s and had about half hang, but no more than 2-3 sec. If you got any petroleum based-lube or other primer-affecting substance in the primer pocket or on the head you could contaminate them and have problems. I think I would do a Reloading CSI and see if I could backtrack & find the source...

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Like said above, WOW, 12 seconds is a very long time. I have a feeling it wasn't anywhere near 12 seconds, it just felt that long.

W748 is a Ball powder and is a little hard to ignite, If you are going to continue using W748 or any Ball powder I suggest changing over to a CCI #34 NATO primer or at lease a LR Magnum primer in place of those standard Winchester primers you're using. The CCI #34 primers are just as hot as Magnum primers.

 

[jcwit]

Like said above, WOW, 12 seconds is a very long time. I have a feeling it wasn't anywhere near 12 seconds, it just felt that long.

W748 is a Ball powder and is a little hard to ignite, If you are going to continue using W748 or any Ball powder I suggest changing over to a CCI #34 NATO primer or at lease a LR Magnum primer in place of those standard Winchester primers you're using. The CCI #34 primers are just as hot as Magnum primers.

I didn't catch the primer issue. I think one should be using #34 primers to begin with in a Garand. Try cycling a round thru the action without firing it and notice the firing pin dimple on the primer,thats why the #34 primers are ment for military semi auto arms. They have a slightly harder cup.

 

[jr_roosa]

WOW, 12 seconds is a very long time. I have a feeling it wasn't anywhere near 12 seconds, it just felt that long.

It felt like an hour. I should have put "12 count" because yeah, it was probably more like 6 seconds.

I think that there is just too much free space in the case for ball powder. With a similar load with Hornady FMJ-BT which I seat a bit deeper to take advantage of the cannelure I never had problems and they chronograph about 50fps faster. These were starting loads and that day was the first one where I had the chronograph. I clearly have a lot of room to increase the charge based on how slow these are going and that I'm not near max loads.

The "Reloading for the M1 Garand" article has 49 and 50 grain loads for Win748 with 50 grain bullets so I think that I'll try working up a bit.

At the very least I'm glad I didn't buy the 8lb keg of Win748 I was planning on since it looks like there's a pound of 4895 in my future.

-J.

 

[sonier]

slightly moist powder is my theory, also your using 748 powder which is hard to ignite. you should be using magnum rifle primers, also check your canister of powder and see if any of it is slightly clumped from condesation. 100 degrees is hot and that can cause condesation quick.

 

[qajaq59]

So, I found a new way to scare myself.

A 12 second delay? Yeah, I;d say that's scary. I'd be checking that powder can for of moisture when I got home. Something had to be seriously wrong to get 3 of them.

 

[jr_roosa]

I found a solution: 4895

So I bought my Garand when there was no powder anywhere to be found. The popular rifle powders were especially scarce. I had 748 in the cabinet, so that's what I started with. 4895 is still a little scarce around here, but I bought an overpriced pound at Bass Pro, and it meters almost as well as 748.

I don't know why I waited so long to try it. I'll load some up, and if it works well then I'll just order a keg of it and never look back.

Thanks for your help everybody!

slightly moist powder is my theory

I live in Arizona, so unless a drop of sweat fell in the cases while I was reloading (a real possibility), moisture probably wasn't the problem. That pound of powder was used up a few months ago, and there was no clumping. Maybe there was some weird pressure/temperature combination between loading and shooting to cause condensation in the cases, but it was over 100 degrees at the range the day I was shooting.

I'll keep the 748 for the .30-30 where it fills the case and I have no ignition problems.

-J.

 

[rocky branch]

standard military drill was to announce "Hang fire! Wait 30 seconds!"