Have tactical shotguns "lost it"?

[ugaarguy]

most people tend to spray and pray with autos

Most people use aimed fire with semi-autos. The spray and pray mantra is constantly used by people trying to discredit the utility of higher capacity firearms or by people trying to justify lower capacity firearms, or both.

Yes they recoil less I still would prefer a smaller shotgun or reduced recoil loads If using a rifle I would prefer a 40 or 45 carbine at the same Ft/lbs level more frontal area Equals better stops. In my opinion, most the professional hunters of old who killed more dangerous game than all us combined believed that and what I have seen hunting deer and hugs it seem to ring true

You're going to get far more than intermediate rifle cartridge recoil from a DG rifle. You aren't going to get intermediate rifle cartridge energy, nor terminal ballistics from a pistol caliber carbine. More frontal area does not equal better stops. Better penetration to allow hitting the vitals is what causes stops. The old DG guys used large caliber rifles with hard cast bullets because the low velocities of black powder necessitated using heavier bullets that had the momentum to penetrate. That all changed with the French invention of smokeless powder and the German addition of the spire pointed FMJ bullet. The higher velocities achievable with smokeless powder and the penetration capability of jacketed pointed bullets forever changed rifles. As H&H Hunter's signature line reads: "Bell, who? He did what with a .275 Rigby?".

If a perp takes 9 00 pellets in the chest and still runs off I will have witnessed what I would call a Miracle because a dead man just ran away. I have heard the term "shotgun dead" for my entire life. I have never heard the term "pistol dead" or anything like that. They use the term "shotgun dead" to describe being as dead as you can get. I am sure people can come up with some examples of someone taking a shotgun blast and living. It can happen but is the rare exception not the rule. Yet the number of gang bangers running around bragging about the 9mm rounds they have taken is common these days. Never met one who took a load of 00 in the chest.

That completely omits and ignores the fact that it's the intermediate cartridge carbine and not the pistol that has largely replaced the shotgun for defensive use.

I have built guns for Doctors, some of whom worked Trauma Centers. They all have first hand knowledge of the effects of a shotgun wound and all were choosing the shotgun for Defense.

I have a close friend who's a retired USAF CMSgt, and he spent much of his career as a PJ. He later moved onto military and civilian hospital administration as his rank increased and his ability to keep up with the young bucks decreased. He never could shake going to see his medics down in the trauma facilities and look after them though. His personal and professional opinion is that pistol rounds are highly survivable. He said buckshot wounds are minimally operable and minimally survivable because of the multiple criss-crossing wound tracks. He said wounds from expanding rifle ammunition (JSP, JHP, ballistic tip) and rounds like M193 ball that tumble and fragment were equally inoperable and equally unlikely to be survived. Those wounds shred flesh from fragmentation and tearing flesh from stretching it beyond its elastic limits (AKA hydrostatic wounding mechanism of high velocity rifle rounds).

I am honored they were choosing my builds.

As you should be. Your work and your company have a great reputation that was certainly earned.

If you are going to a gun fight, take a shotgun. If you can't take a shotgun, don't go.

I'm not planning to go to any gun fights. If a gunfight comes to me my first choice is going to be to get away from it. If I can't get away from it, I'll almost certainly be shooting back with the pistol I have on me. If it comes to my home I'll grab the long gun I shoot best.

 

[Skribs]

People spray and pray with manually operated firearms, too, and that's when you run into issues with short-stroking. Someone who doesn't short-stroke a manual also wouldn't spray and pray with an auto.

Thinking that just because you have an auto you will automatically spray and pray is just like thinking that just because someone has a gun they're going to go on a shooting spree.

 

[Jason_W]

If a home invader is shot COM at an across the room distance with a load of buckshot, he's most likely dead. If a home invader is shot COM 2-3 times with an AR at an across the room distance, he's most likely dead. Doesn't everything else boil down to what the individual prefers?

If you're recoil sensitive, that's totally ok. Use a light kicking carbine. If you like the boom and kick of 12 gauge, use that. Both platforms have their advantages and disadvantages, but at the end of the day, both are more than adequate for the vast majority of defensive situations an average Joe is likely to encounter.

 

[plumberroy]

Most people use aimed fire with semi-autos. The spray and pray mantra is constantly used by people trying to discredit the utility of higher capacity firearms or by people trying to justify lower capacity firearms, or both.

You're going to get far more than intermediate rifle cartridge recoil from a DG rifle. You aren't going to get intermediate rifle cartridge energy, nor terminal ballistics from a pistol caliber carbine. More frontal area does not equal better stops. Better penetration to allow hitting the vitals is what causes stops. The old DG guys used large caliber rifles with hard cast bullets because the low velocities of black powder necessitated using heavier bullets that had the momentum to penetrate. That all changed with the French invention of smokeless powder and the German addition of the spire pointed FMJ bullet. The higher velocities achievable with smokeless powder and the penetration capability of jacketed pointed bullets forever changed rifles. As H&H Hunter's signature line reads: "Bell, who? He did what with a .275 Rigby?".


That completely omits and ignores the fact that it's the intermediate cartridge carbine and not the pistol that has largely replaced the shotgun for defensive use.

I have a close friend who's a retired USAF CMSgt, and he spent much of his career as a PJ. He later moved onto military and civilian hospital administration as his rank increased and his ability to keep up with the young bucks decreased. He never could shake going to see his medics down in the trauma facilities and look after them though. His personal and professional opinion is that pistol rounds are highly survivable. He said buckshot wounds are minimally operable and minimally survivable because of the multiple criss-crossing wound tracks. He said wounds from expanding rifle ammunition (JSP, JHP, ballistic tip) and rounds like M193 ball that tumble and fragment were equally inoperable and equally unlikely to be survived. Those wounds shred flesh from fragmentation and tearing flesh from stretching it beyond its elastic limits (AKA hydrostatic wounding mechanism of high velocity rifle rounds).


As you should be. Your work and your company have a great reputation that was certainly earned.


I'm not planning to go to any gun fights. If a gunfight comes to me my first choice is going to be to get away from it. If I can't get away from it, I'll almost certainly be shooting back with the pistol I have on me. If it comes to my home I'll grab the long gun I shoot best.

Ok you can't have it both ways the facts on how low percentage of police hits and most people don't spray and pray with autos You don't have to go to high recoil D.G rifles to see frontal area of a bullet equals more stopping power take a 405 grain factory 45-70 load verses 1 step up from your most common AR round a 22-250 factory 50 gr round on paper these rounds are equal energy wise neither kick out of a rifle, on deer size game game they are no where close. But again the frontal area effectiveness is an opinion thing .

Comes down to this, At you home it is you and yours neck on the line use what you want . I haven't found anything better than a 12 pump shotgun

The really sad part is the things that really taught me to shoot most young people will never get to do . Things like running along a fast moving creek with a Daisy shooting at a dime store boat . Shooting sparrows and starling in a barn at night with rat shot in a smooth bore 22 and shooting rats at the dump . long range clod shooting with 22's (no range finders allowed)

Roy

 

[dh223]

I don't think anyone would deny a load of 00 buckshot to the chest of a bad guy is a powerful thing.

What most people have decided is that the shotgun as a platform is less desirable than an AR15 carbine.

It's the total package.

 

[farscott]

One of the biggest advantages of the shotgun as HD weapon is cost. A very good HD weapon can be bought for less than $300, and the ammo to feed this gun is plentiful and inexpensive. One can find a used 870 for anywhere from $150 to $300 and have a gun that is ready to go. It takes more than double that cost to find an AR-15. For those of limited means, that may be the difference between having an HD gun and not. If nothing else, that is a good reason why the shotgun is still relevant and useful.

There are other shotguns that are also very affordable. I recently saw a 12-gauge Remington 11 with a 19-inch barrel in a pawn shop for $350. I bet that excellent condition gun could have gone home with me for $250. Not bad for a auto-loading shotgun with a one-hundred year track record.

During the last ammo crisis, shotgun shells were readily available at essentially the same prices as pre-crisis. So there is an affordable gun with affordable and available ammo.

 

[MCgunner]

One of the biggest advantages of the shotgun as HD weapon is cost. A very good HD weapon can be bought for less than $300

What's wrong with an ordinary field gun lots of guys already have? Barrel too long for your tastes? Just get a short barrel for it. But, if you're doing the barricaded safe room defense, the long barrel is of no concern. I used to adhere to the safe room defense strategy when I lived in town and had quick LEO response. Out here, I've taken a more aggressive attitude with bumps in the night. And, the dog will give me some warning. But, I feel pretty safe from the gobblins out here.

 

[farscott]

Nothing wrong with a field gun. In fact, most of my 870 purchases are used Wingmasters. But a lot of people looking for an HD gun do NOT have a field gun as they are not out in the field.

I have a rule: I buy every 2-3/4" chambered Wingmaster or 870P I can find for less than $300 OTD. Most of those guns come with 26-inch or 28-inch barrels. They are quite suitable as is for HD unless you have tight quarters. On one of mine I got for $200, I cut the barrel down to 18.5" and threaded a new brass bead into the vent rib barrel. I also replaced the furniture on that one as the stock was cracked at the wrist. It is now a very handy HD gun in the tight corners of one of my residences. I think I might have $300 in it.

 

[TestPilot]

If a perp takes 9 00 pellets in the chest and still runs off I will have witnessed what I would call a Miracle because a dead man just ran away. I have heard the term "shotgun dead" for my entire life. I have never heard the term "pistol dead" or anything like that. They use the term "shotgun dead" to describe being as dead as you can get. I am sure people can come up with some examples of someone taking a shotgun blast and living.

Fact of the matter is that no CNS hit, then it is completely plausible to keep fighting after a shotgun wound. It is no "miracle." It's just science.

No amount of fancy rhetoric is going to change that fact.

It can happen but is the rare exception not the rule.

On what grounds are you claiming that is only the case with shotguns compared to rifles?

Yet the number of gang bangers running around bragging about the 9mm rounds they have taken is common these days. Never met one who took a load of 00 in the chest.

More people get shot by pistols than shotguns.

I have built guns for Doctors, some of whom worked Trauma Centers. They all have first hand knowledge of the effects of a shotgun wound and all were choosing the shotgun for Defense. I am honored they were choosing my builds.

Because doctors know more about gun fights than SWAT officers?

 

[TestPilot]

Post by lemaymiami:
As usual a variety of opinions about fighting shotguns. Used within its limitations nothing is more effective at ranges under 25 meters.

On what grounds are you making such claims?

 

[AI&P Tactical]

I will make the same claims and prove it. Go to www.aiptactical.com and click on the red link "Gun fight". The demonstration I describe there that took place on the Metro Dade Police Range proves the initial fire power of the shotgun over rifles and SMG's. Initial firepower can end the threat and that is what matters.

I understood the fire power of the shotgun over these other weapons before seeing that demonstration. I was on another range with my team and they came over and invited us to watch. I left one team member there watching our gear and took the rest over to watch. It made an impact on my team and anyone else watching. It instilled a new respect for the shotgun and their old Fossil of a Team Leader.

So, all this mess being batted about here is mostly opinion. The facts are describe in that demonstration and speak for themselves. If you want the most initial fire power you can bring to bare on a threat then the shotgun is the answer.

So if the shotgun is fading away with the Tacti-fool fad crowd so be it. Old hands like me and some others here now what for and our shotguns will be ready if needed.

 

[tarosean]

Second, words like "versatile" thrown around further convinces me that this is a perception issue.

Versatile? In what regard?

Really? What other single gun can you effectively hunt every game animal in North America on land or Air, Games, and serve as HD?

 

[MCgunner]

"Lost it"?

The thing is that shotguns never "had it" to begin with.

Too many of what people believe about shotguns are perceptions than reality.

First, shotgun shots are not that almighty death rays people make it out to be.

Look at the raw numbers. A 12 gauge 2 3/4" foster slug is putting up 2600 or so ft lbs. Figure a load of buckshot is pretty close to that. Your .223 is putting up HALF that, about 1200 ft lbs at the muzzle.

Now then, just think about this, if you were facing an angry grizzly, would you want your AR15 pop gun or a 12 gauge full of slugs? No, they're not death rays, but they make the .223 look like a Benjamin .177.

Game wardens up north, tasked with working in bear country, mostly carry 12 gauges, not ARs. There's a reason for that.

 

[Frostbite]

Game wardens up north, tasked with working in bear country, mostly carry 12 gauges, not ARs. There's a reason for that.

Hummm... Yes, there must be a reason.

 

[RustyShackelford]

FWIW....

In my metro area, a local police officer in the downtown area pulled out a Bushmaster 5.56x45mm and cranked off 23 rounds, . He claimed he was aiming at a fleeing felon(in a motor vehicle). Even the other patrol officers and cops on the scene questioned the sworn police officer's actions.
He's now facing felony charges and will be lucky if he keeps his LE certification even if he gets off on the criminal charges.
Id say that many officers can and do get into "spray and pray" lethal force events but they also must face drastic or career ending repercussions for it, .
Prudent LE officers and CCW holders plan or train to be more selective.

 

[ugaarguy]

I will make the same claims and prove it. Go to www.aiptactical.com and click on the red link "Gun fight".

From your website:
1991 Metro Dade Range, Miami FL. Two SWAT members put on a demonstration. One had an 870 with 20" barrel and three shot tube. He was loaded with 2 3/4" 00 buck which has 12 pellets so that was 8 rounds = 96 pellets. The other had a fully auto MP-5 type sub machine gun in 9mm with a 30 round magazine. Empty frames were used to simulate a window and they would both begin to fire when they turned. Standing targets were set behind the frames with just cardboard to show hits. The target turned and they began firing. The sub gun guy was really working the trigger perfect and putting out 3 round burst. The pump shooter was rocking, wow, he had that pump down. Everyone conceded that the Sub gun shooter finished almost a second before the shotgun shooter did. But here is the point people. The shooter with the 12ga put 96 .32 caliber pellets through that window in almost the same time the Sub Machine gun shooter put 30 9mm rounds.

The demonstration I describe there that took place on the Metro Dade Police Range proves the initial fire power of the shotgun over rifles and SMG's. Initial firepower can end the threat and that is what matters.

No, it doesn't prove that what you think it does. A single .32 cal round ball does not have anywhere near the same wounding capability as a single 9mm or similar JHP. A single 9mm JHP has nowhere near the wounding capability of a single round of tumbling or expand 5.56 NATO or similar intermediate rifle cartridge. It takes all 9-12 pellets of buck shot from each shell to make a wound that's close to what a single expanding 5.56 / .223 or similar round makes.

Look at the raw numbers. A 12 gauge 2 3/4" foster slug is putting up 2600 or so ft lbs. Figure a load of buckshot is pretty close to that. Your .223 is putting up HALF that, about 1200 ft lbs at the muzzle.

And despite the energy difference the terminal effect in humans and similar size mammals is the same.

Now then, just think about this, if you were facing an angry grizzly, would you want your AR15 pop gun or a 12 gauge full of slugs? No, they're not death rays, but they make the .223 look like a Benjamin .177.

That's a complete straw man argument. We're talking about defense against other humans trying to do us harm, not dangerous game.

Game wardens up north, tasked with working in bear country, mostly carry 12 gauges, not ARs. There's a reason for that.

Yes, they're dealing with bears more than humans. I wouldn't choose a .375 H&H for defense against humans, but it would be a fine caliber to have in a rifle for bears.

 

[Inebriated]

Those fellas up north carry hard cast slugs, much more akin to big bore DG guns (as ugaarguy noted) than buckshot, which is the focus of this completely ridiculous, academic discussion.

They both work, use what you want to use. But to suggest that buckshot is better than any of the good 5.56 loads out there simply due to the fact that it dispenses more energy, without even considering the track record of either, is just being difficult. A stop is a stop.

 

[TestPilot]

Post by tarosean:
Really? What other single gun can you effectively hunt every game animal in North America on land or Air, Games, and serve as HD?

Irrelevant. If you read the OP, you should know that this thread is about tactical use.

 

[TestPilot]

Post by AI&P Tactical:
Go to www.aiptactical.com and click on the red link "Gun fight".

From that website mentioned by AI&P Tactical:
1991 Metro Dade Range, Miami FL. Two SWAT members put on a demonstration. One had an 870 with 20" barrel and three shot tube. He was loaded with 2 3/4" 00 buck which has 12 pellets so that was 8 rounds = 96 pellets. The other had a fully auto MP-5 type sub machine gun in 9mm with a 30 round magazine. Empty frames were used to simulate a window and they would both begin to fire when they turned. Standing targets were set behind the frames with just cardboard to show hits. The target turned and they began firing. The sub gun guy was really working the trigger perfect and putting out 3 round burst. The pump shooter was rocking, wow, he had that pump down. Everyone conceded that the Sub gun shooter finished almost a second before the shotgun shooter did. But here is the point people. The shooter with the 12ga put 96 .32 caliber pellets through that window in almost the same time the Sub Machine gun shooter put 30 9mm rounds.

If you think shooting a fully exposed torso size static target that does not move while a shooter goes "Boom! cachink... Boom! cachink...Boom! cachink...Boom! cachink...Boom! cachink...Boom! cachink...Boom! cachink...Boom!" has ANY relevance to how a gun fight goes down....

I don't know what to tell you. At least anything nice.

KEY POINT. If you address a close quarters threat with the maximum fire power and end the threat there is no need to reload.

So, modern SWAT officers use rifles because they like to reload and enjoy getting into lengthy gun fights? Even when on mission where they know there is only one suspect?

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi TestPilot,

Keep in mind that SWAT has an offensive mission not defensive.

In the rather unlikely event that a person of questionable intent was in my house, my mission would be purely defensive. The kids would be herded upstairs and the security gate of the back stairs locked. Should that person stay downstairs I would have reason none to act. Once he makes the choice to climb the stairs he would be facing a 20 gauge SAIGA with a 20 round drum magazine loaded with a mix of #2 and slug at the 1st station at the top of the stairs. The 2nd station would be a carbine. The 3rd would be a PO'd Pinay woman with a knife in one hand and a sword bayonet in the other determined he would not reach her children.

Would you want to climb those stairs?

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I suppose the shottie is out of fashion for lots of reasons. A primary one is that we have a vast amount of citizens now that have tons of combat experience with the M4. It's what they're used to; after leaving the military a lot of them purchased the closest civilian equivalent to their service carbine. A lot if the fighting in Iraq was urban so there's a wealth of practical experience in using a carbine in an urban setting. It's logical that the carbine would be more popular now.

Carbines seem to have not only largely replaced the shotgun but the SMG as well. Agencies that used to tote MP5s are now running some kind of M4-gery. Again, it goes back to deep experience with the 5.56 in combat.

None of this is meant to imply that the shotgun isn't an effective weapon. It is. Of course, as others have said the weaknesses of the shotgun aren't new, either. They have always had a lot of recoil and low magazine capacity. Pumps are susceptible to "short stroking" as well.

Lastly I suppose it's possible that the relative decline of the quality of Remington guns could have something to do with it. To many the 870 is synonymous with "fighting shotgun" but new 870s don't seem to be as well made as the old ones (unless you spring for the Police or find a NOS Wingmaster).

 

[TestPilot]

Post by Officers'Wife:
Hi TestPilot,

Keep in mind that SWAT has an offensive mission not defensive.

In the rather unlikely event that a person of questionable intent was in my house, my mission would be purely defensive.

I mean no offense, but there is a huge misconception here.

Offense or defense is a matter of intent. At times, it is prudent for a defender to advance. At times, it is prudent for an attacker to let the defender advance.

If a shotgun is really THE best weapon for CQB as some say it to be, then why shouldn't a person on a offensive mission take it?

Does requirement to end the fight quickly somehow not apply for offensive mission? And, clearly this is not just because of multiple opponent consideration, because I know for a fact that SWAT still takes rifle when it is known that there is only one opponent.

Would you want to climb those stairs?

I would not want to climb thos stairs even if you only had a 22 LR revolver. Does that make 22 LR revolver the quintessential home defense weapon?

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Test Pilot,

Irrelevant, the .22 is what it is. While sadly underpowered for the scenario mentioned it would be a great improvement over a knife and bayonet. The "mission" I laid out the goal is that my children not have to be subjected to the abuse I suffered while a foster child in the city of Chicago. While I'm told no plan survives contact with the enemy within the parameters I laid out the aggressor is not likely to go past the 1st station if only because after the sixth or seventh round he's going to wonder just how many more rounds are left.

Modern weapons available to SWAT is hardly the definition of the complete weapon system for home defense. Keep in mind that the military has in it's inventory only two weapon systems that have been used in every war, police action and conflict in the 20th and 21st century. Those being the M2 heavy machine gun and the 12 gauge "trench gun." I'm told by people that were there that the 12 gauge was the most issued weapon guarding ammunition dumps in Korea and Vietnam. The latter, most of the weapons used by SWAT were available.

Most home defense is not going to involve going from room to room clearing out possible hostiles. Some of the military experienced may correct me if I'm wrong but the first chore of defense is to establish a perimeter to defend. The second chore is to find a spot where the defender has a tactical advantage. The third chore is to increase that advantage. In that situation comparing SWAT chores is apples to oranges.

 

[Ash]

Sporting clays are practice. Sam1911, you should have read my post. Pattern shooting is a chore. At the range doing that is not fun. But get clays out, and I don't feel it again. Indeed, clay shooting is better training than shooting paper. Pattern-shooting is the shotgun version of bench shooting.

Clay shooting IS practice and a lot of fun and recoil is not felt.

As to how you will react when a baddie is showing up, shotgun hunting on live prey is far better practice than shooting at paper. The same is true regarding a rifle. How many times do AR guys spend shooting moving targets? If wing or fur hunting with a shotgun are not good training (where muscle memory is well-trained), then the only way to practice in the real world is to find some bad guys and shoot it out with them.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Sporting clays are practice. Sam1911, you should have read my post. Pattern shooting is a chore. At the range doing that is not fun. But get clays out, and I don't feel it again. Indeed, clay shooting is better training than shooting paper. Pattern-shooting is the shotgun version of bench shooting.

Clay shooting IS practice and a lot of fun and recoil is not felt.

As to how you will react when a baddie is showing up, shotgun hunting on live prey is far better practice than shooting at paper. The same is true regarding a rifle. How many times do AR guys spend shooting moving targets? If wing or fur hunting with a shotgun are not good training (where muscle memory is well-trained), then the only way to practice in the real world is to find some bad guys and shoot it out with them.

Blessed be the voice of reason, for he will live with unreasonable people.