Have you ever used your sidearm in self defense?

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Greetings again,
whilst the Caste Doctrine is a piece of legislation I would love to have over here, unfortunately it is not so.

My mindset is therefore, why wait until the goblins are INSIDE my house, where my family is more at risk, if I could rather engage outside?

Obviously this is done tactically, with due regard to cover, lighting, familiarity with location and superior fire power.

If I hear a disturbance outside I will investigate as it might just be somebody that cannot defend themselves against those afore mentioned goblins and, am I not my brother's keeper?

I have oft, during my training, referred to the sheepdog analogy used by Col David Grossman (ret), and I would ask that I be allowed to post that analogy once again, although I am sure that most folk o this site are very familiar with it.

Dave Grossman:
"One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

“Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident.” …

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation.
They are sheep.


“Then there are the wolves,” the old war veteran said, “and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy.” Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

“Then there are sheepdogs,” he went on, “and I’m a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf.”

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf.

But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero’s path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.


The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn’t tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16.
The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, “Baa.”

Until the wolf shows up.

Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be.

Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day.

It’s a simple analogy, but it conveys the point well enough.

*end of quoted analogy*

Would we prefer that, in our moment of need, those that hear our call are sheep, or sheepdogs?

I have used my weapons to defend my country, my life, the lives of my family and the lives of unknown innocents.

I sleep well at night knowing this.

I thank you for the opportunity of stating my case.

Bodie in Africa
 
I have never used my CCW. Many years ago while working part time and attending college I work at a Circle K. One night while alone two guys came in, one went to the book rack and one went to the beer cooler. Both were underage. As the guy from the beer cooler started to the counter with a case of beer, the guy at the book rack asked if I had a certain book, which distracted me long enough for the other guy to run out the front door. I grabbed my 3 iron golf club from under the counter and went in hot pursuit into the parking. As I went out the door I saw the flash and heard the report from a gun and I took immediate cover behind the first car I came to. Seems an off duty LEO saw the BG's casing the store and just waited. Results: 1 BG dead and 1 wounded and captured. I am just lucky that the LEO did not shoot me also. I never worked another day for Circle K
 
Like I said, I appreciate the feedback. I guess there is a little more I should have added. I have tried that, stay inside and let the police handle it. I live in Macon, Ga. I'm not sure if anyone else reading is from here or is familiar with the problems the police department is facing but basically, our police department is horrible. Macon PD has been mired in lawsuits for years over equal pay. They don't have a pay scale so 10 yr veterans make the same pay as 1 year rookies. Because of that, they are grossly understaffed. They are basically a cop-churning machine. Our officers get trained and usually within 3 years leave for other departments where they get twice the pay and half of the workload. Most of the police here are rookies.

The crime rate here has grown over the last few years, both residential and business, with literally dozens of armed business robberies since the beginning of this year. Almost every available officer is on a special task force trying to stem the business robberies. It's basically a crap shoot if you're going to get a response or not. Please visit this link and you'll see what I'm talking about. I have tried the stay inside and let the police do their work plan with mixed results, even recently. I called last month to report my neighbors dogs were barking at something, nobody came. About four months ago, I called and reported a group of three teenage boys were beating the snot out of two girls and nobody came. I've called Christmas eve three years ago to report someone was breaking into my car and ten minutes later, one cruiser shows, saw the broken window, took a report and left...didn't dust for prints or anything.

I can't wait for the day when we break ground on our new home, outside of the city but until that day comes, I'm in condition orange 24/7.
 
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I live in a small town in Palm Beach County with 9,000 residents. The citizens here would not put up with that BS and vote the town commisioners out of office and get commissioners that can find a means to provide the tools for the PD to be more proactive and reactive. My town is less than 3 square miles and has a 20 man PD with a $2.6 million dollar budget. The police budget is derived from the town's property tax assestment of $2.8 million. Crimes are seldom committed by a resident of the town, most are committed by thugs from a city just south of us. Crime in this area is still a major problem because of a minority group that is 12% of the national population but commit 85% of all crime.
 
I can't wait for the day when we break ground on our new home, outside of the city but until that day comes, I'm in condition orange 24/7.

GASheepDog: That's gotta be a tough wait.

The validity of the suggestions to remain in a defensive position inside your home when the pig spoor is hitting the wind flipper outside doesn't depend on good police response, however.

Even without any response at all, you are still better able to defend yourself, your family, and your possessions from behind locked doors and windows.

Any goblin coming through one of those uninvited is at a potentially fatal disadvantage.

The only exception would be in the case of innocents being assaulted nearby. That's a tougher call. I'd bet for most of us, doing nothing in the face of that kind of evil would be unacceptable.

What happened to the girls being beat on?
 
Point well taken.....

I couldn't see the end result, their primary focus was on the older looking girl. I saw the boy land one right on her face and she started wailing back. The other girl was mostly being pushed. They were walking down the street when it started and just kept fighting while heading down the street out of my view.

From everything that I've read, those are exactly the situations (domestic type) to stay out of so I had no problem staying inside watching. If they had fallen and were still being beaten, I would have gotten directly involved.

I'll rethink how I've approached these situations and take a few more seconds before reacting to the inevitable future events that are going to happen while I live here.

My job puts me on the streets of the roughest parts of town undefended except for a knife and various hand tools so I've learned to be very alert to what's going on around me and size up potential threats very quickly. I feel like I've developed some sort of street attitude and I've diffused a few situations that could have turned ugly. I've found that keeping some distance to retreat is my best defense but I've used both humor or a bad attitude to diffuse others....with me showing no fear being a common denominator. I guess it's that me showing no fear at work makes it a helluva lot easier to show no fear at my own home where I feel I have the tactical advantage both inside my home and out.

I'll leave it be now while that stews so this doesn't turn into a thread hijack.
 
Well this I think could best be described as an epic thread!

To throw back to the 'unloaded or loaded with blanks' discussion, what do you folks think of this: Load up your magazine, and save your +1 for a blank to use in the case that staring down the muzzle doesn't scare someone off. I figure if the situation does require deadly force, you can double tap the blank out of the way.

Just a thought, mull it over and let me know what you think. By the way, I absolutely agree that using an unloaded gun is irresponsible, not to mention probably suicide.

*edit*
Hmm... Just occurred to me that blanks probably don't cycle the action very reliably in a pistol, which is probably not a risk you want to take in that situation, but I don't have any experience using blanks, so I dunno.
 
On bluffs

I do not CC, however I could as I live in Alaska, but with my neighbors I really don't feel the need, the cross fire would be dangerous. When I was in high school I was in two incidents, the first was at the school where a friend of a friend pulled a knife on me. I offered to rub his face off on the side walk and gave him the opportunity to put his knife away, which he did the urging his friends. The second one was at my house which was in the middle of hundreds of acres of Christmas trees. A neighbor boy was trying to get my friends and me to go shoot rabbits, as this involved him shooting and us trying to find the wounded rabbit, I expressed my opinion of that. He then offered to shoot me, and leveled his single shot 22 at me. I put a hand behind my back where I carried a large knife and told him if he shot me he had better kill me because he would be dead before he reloaded (I knew he shot shorts) My buddies went white and told him to drop the gun before I killed him.

Looking back it would have been better to have avoided these situations, but in both cases I wasn't thinking how to get out of it, I was thinking of how to get them before they could kill me. Having friends who know your temper back you up helps. Looking back, I probably over reacted, but I am alive and didn't have to fight. I think I still have that knife somewhere, I really liked it.

Pulling a gun takes you from dangerous to deadly, if you don't have bullets, it's only deadly to you.
 
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My Fathers friend got in a wrestling match with a junkie at a pharmacy he was working at. His friend was a pharmacist and was robbed a few times. This one junkie was getting angry at his frightened wife and was pointing the gun at his pregnant wife saying he would shoot her and her baby in the stomach. So while the junkie was not paying attention he tries to grab the gun and gets in a wrestling match with the guy. It ends up that my father's friend gets shot in the neck and after the junkie thinks he killed him he ran off. Well, thankfully my father's friend lived and is healthy and so is his family. However, you can see that this story could have ended miserably.

So, my belief is if I have enough time to try to grab his gun and wrestle him, I should also have enough time to take my small snubnose revolver out and while he is offguard put a bullet in his brain to protect my loved ones and myself. Had my father's friend not wrestled the guy, his wife and baby may have been dead. Had the guy gotten more lucky, he could have put a bullet in the head of my father's friend, the pharmacist.

Bottom line is always carry a gun. With these small guns you can pocket carry now, there is very few reasons not to have a gun with you. Had my father's friend had a small j-frame or KelTec gun on hand, he could have probably put a hole in the robber's head, saved himself from neck surgery and protected his family. Not only that, but by letting this junkie robber live, who knows how many other innocent lives this bloodthirsty demon has destroyed.
 
Close. I was in Toronto walking near my hotel with my wife, when a couple of street thugs coming towards us moved to flank us. I pulled back my suit jacket with my thumb, and they scattered. Then I remembered I was in Canada. No gun.

The only time you don't buckle your seatbelt is when you are going to have an accident.

Two years ago, after finishing work, I picked up my 4yo daughter and returned to my office. I was sitting where the public could look in, and I noticed a man staring at me. After a few minutes he left, then returned and walked into my office where he began screaming irrational things. I ordered him to leave, and he did. I reported this to the police.

No gun: Work and School hate guns!

A year later that crazy went to his auto mechanic and tried to shoot him; his gun jamed. He is in prison for the next decade.

Did I mention the only time you need something...
 
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Once in the 1980s. Before cell phones. I was driving to work early on a Sunday morning. As I entered the freeway (I-59 at Springville,Al.)I could see about a mile ahead and behind and noted that I was alone on the highway. When I checked my rearview mirror I was stunned to see an old IHC pick-up truck on my bumper. Where did he come from? As I reach the speed limit of 70mph. the guy starts acting like he is going to ram me. I maintain my speed and pull my S&W Model 57,.41 mag from under the seat. The guy then decides to pull along side and swerved toward me as if trying to run me off the road. I can see a guy in the passenger's seat facing the driver and laughing. At this point I have rolled down my window and lowered the Smith at the passenger who turns to see the big bore staring at him. Then it was my turn to laugh as the big smile left his face along with his color and I lip read him say "HE's GOTTA Gun!!!" The last I saw of them they were departing for safer territory. Didn't have to fire(thank GOD) but I wonder what would have happened if I had not been armed.
 
Mr. Alloy: To throw back to the 'unloaded or loaded with blanks' discussion, what do you folks think of this: Load up your magazine, and save your +1 for a blank to use in the case that staring down the muzzle doesn't scare someone off. I figure if the situation does require deadly force, you can double tap the blank out of the way.


I respectfully disagree, for two reasons (and there might very well be more).

1) I believe if a confrontation escalates far enough, there will come a "moment of truth" where unless you stop the attacker RFN, he's going to kill you or someone you love. You don't know beforehand, but you definitely know it right then. That is not the time for further talking, or scaring the attacker, or other loin-girding activities, it is the time for killing, as accurately and quickly as you can do it. At that split second, you don't want anything in your way if you can help it, least of all a silly decision on your own part to be less prepared than absolutely possible. What if the blank round stovepipes, or the next round fails to feed? What if you can only get off one round at the attacker before he knocks your gun away or his buddy headlocks you? The fact that you've pulled your gun tells me that you already fear for your life. How many more chances are you willing to give the attacker to succeed at his crime?

2) Secondly, it's difficult to accurately predict how a situation will end up. I might have my face up against a concrete wall with my arm twisted behind my back, there might be another attacker grabbing at my arm, I might be halfway into or out of a vehicle. Heck, my buddy got attacked right up on his own front porch. His attacker came up the steps yelling and punched and kicked him back against his firewood pile before he got ahold of him and turned things around. So I guess my point is, I may need every tiny advantage to survive. I'm not going to give away the match before I even get into the ring. Or as my old Pa used to say when we were faced with a daunting task, "Well, let's not tie our shoelaces together, anyway."

Just my opinion, but carrying for SD is not for everybody. If a person shoulders that responsibility, they need to look deep inside themselves and come to grips with what it entails. Killing another human is a terrible thing, and the only reason we would even consider it is to prevent something worse, sometimes much worse. But if we are forced to do it, let's do it swiftly and decisively, without shrinking or hesitation, and get it over with. No threats, no warning shots, no blank rounds. That's movie stuff.

Parker
 
My story

When I was 11 years oldi in 1968 we lived in South Houston off South Park
which back then was a middle class burbs. In 1966/67 they started block busting (moving one black family in so everybody would put house up for sale)
we were one the last to hold out.
I went to a private school because of intergration and was out for a school
holiday and my mother worked part-time as a checker for Weingarten's
grocery and was gone, I was alone that afternoon alone.
Across the street was some saving and loan and cleaners-hamburger joint.
I was watching T.V. and hear screaming and yelling so I open the curtains to look out and see a 66 chevy parked in our driveway, 2 guys in the car and
one was pointing a pistol at some guy that was yelling....I guess it was the saving and loan manager?
The guy in the car see's me look out and starts running up towards the door.
They were all black and wearing bandana's and that scared the crap out of me. He was banging the front door and trying to knock/kick it in.
I went to the closet and grabed my father's Stevens double barrel shot gun...
but I did not know it had buck shot in it and crouched behind the living room couch.
The guy fired one shot at the lock and the front door opened half way.
I squeezed the trigger and being 11 years old both barrels went off and blew most of front door into the guy and some buck-shot hit his shoulder and wood splinters in eyes/face...... The blast knocked me on my ass too.
He was screaming and the car took off. The lady across the street heard the
racket too and had already called the police.
Houston police came and this is no joke started beating the crap out of the guy
with night sticks...but this was 1968, now the cops would be going to jail too.
Well, they took him to hospital? I guess? and the police told me what a great job I did and got a signed award from Houston Police dept.
Thats the way it was in 1968 in south Houston
 
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The cat thing reminds me of something I went through.

So, I was coming back to school this past fall. I had been driving for three days across country and I had the wonderful fortune of parking myself right in the middle of tropical storm Fay (we all remember that bundle of joy I bet).

Anywho, I got back to town a day before the school opened and one of my friends let me stay at his place. It's dark, dreary, wet, and I'm just exhausted and a bit out there.

So, we're sitting about and watching a horror movie (hey, it seemed like a wonderful idea at the time) when one of the motion detector lights comes on. Well, that's not unusual when there's a high wind and there's lots of leaves and branches flying about. Now, the weird thing was when we saw what looked like headlights sweeping across the living room. Not just sweeping across, but it looked like it orginated from the middle of a set of bushes where a car really can't go. So, that started off some red flags.

We were nervous because since they had been doing some roof repair and there were a number of tools lying about inside the house, garage, and a number of places. Most of the stuff was borrowed and we were rather scared of having it stolen during the storm. So, as a precaution we drag his Glock 24, an old .38 made by Taurus, and my M48 mauser out of the safe.

Nothing too worrisome.

Next thing we know, the motion lights come on, a light sweeps across the living room and a sickening wet THUMP comes from outside. Sounds like someone tried to run down the door.

Well at that point it became condition red.

Everything was loaded up already and we were up and out in probably 20s.

We head outside ready to confront someone who's trying to steal and cause havok and all that jazz.

And what happens?

A f***ing tabby runs off into the bushes with the living daylights scared outta him.
 
HEY GaSheepDog

One piece of unsolicited advice, when you recounted your tale about being accosted by the teenagers, it seems to me the comment about his momma being on welfare was a little over the top.

To young thugs, "respect" is of paramount imortance. They are willing to kill and die for it. Nobody likes to be panhandled, but there was no need to insult him. That could have got you and your wife killed.

I am a big guy, size 60 chest, 300lbs, 6'1, so I don't get approached often, but the scariest times I have been approached is by a group of youngsters. Remember, these kids don't have any concept of consequences and sometimes have trouble distinguishing reality from video games, movies and music.

Just my 2 cents.
 
I like the story from Miami, Fl that I heard. A guy stopped at a stop sign and a BG came up to his open truck window and demanded money. The driver pulled his gun and put it in the guys face and asked for his cell phone and then told the BG to take off all of his cloths or he would blow his brains out. The bad guy took his cloths off and then the driver told the BG to start running, which he did, the driver then used the BG's cell phone to call 911 and give the description of the nude black guy and the direction he ran. The BG was caught, still in the nude, behind a dumpster several blocks away.
 
"Yes. About a quarter century ago. A mall parking lot at night during Christmas with my wife and (then) small children. Knife vs. S&W. I took damage but walked away under my own power. The police didn't even take my revolver. BTW, I only heard "pops" from a 3 inch .357 Magnum but the muzzle flashes were like strobes. In the dreams that wake me up, I can't seem to find my gun."

Boy, that's really spooky!!

ECS
 
"But even though I was completely justified, I'm glad that I didn't. I promise you I would have, but I'm glad I didn't have to. And not just because of the legal headaches that would've lead to my eventual acquittal or case dismissal. But because I value human life. And I'm glad I didn't take one that day."

Yeah, when all the Rambo, macho BS is set aside that's where the rest of us are with this problem also. We'd just rather NOT end another human's life.
 
"The problem with posting a self-defense use of the sidearm or long gun here is that it brings out all the 'Armchair Quarterbacks and Generals' who weren't even there and didn't experience what you perceived or felt in terms of a threat. My 3 instances will remain undiscussed except in person, given the flaming here that goes on by folks who weren't there and feel the need to second-guess your perception of a threat."

Evidently you didn't read the first eight pages!!
 
"no offense there dude but, sounds like your mouth wrote a check your behind couldnt cash my friend"


HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D:D:D
 
Claude Clay- I watched him load the rifle as he walked from his truck. I didn't realize I needed to specifically state the rifle was loaded as I figured it would be assumed.

Anyone... including you as you say you do this... who uses a scoped rifle as binoculars is majorly violating safe gun handling rules and is acting very irresponsibly. He was acting criminally. I believe he intended to shoot the bird. If he had, I would have most definitely have shot him. Sorry if this bothers you.
 
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