Having trouble aligning sights when shooting both eyes open

[1SOW]

Agree with most of the above, especially getting rid of rear sight distractions/dots.
Front sight centered in the non-distracting rear notch.

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

OP:

I have experienced the same thing. I am confident that I have figured it out, though. The reason why is because if you shoot with both eyes open and you focus on the front sight... there will be two targets. The target is big and it isn't in focus so the "two targets" overlap and blur together (so you still think there is just one target you are aiming at... especially since you are concentrating on the front sight). It is the same phenomenon that occurs if you hold up your index finger and then cross your eyes... do you now have two index fingers? No, your eyes just aren't focused on it so they see it from different angles.

You naturally "listen" (or favor) your dominant eye so you tend to aim at the image created by your dominant eye. You are right-eye dominant looking at the front sight (that is slightly to the left of your right eye) so your right eye forms a target image to the left of the front sight. You put your front sight over that image and fire... and then for some reason your shots are off to the left. Well, again, when you cross your eyes and hold up your index finger is your finger to the left and the right? No... it is still in the center. So you actually have to aim between the two "false images" created by your eyes not working together like they normally do.

The error caused by this increases as the distance to the target increases. So, for a self-defense situation where everything is up close it won't have to be compensated for.

I actually have an alternative strategy to adapting to this problem. But, I haven't practiced with it enough to know if there are other downsides to this technique that I am not going to address below.

My plan is to focus on the target with both eyes open. You will only see one target and when you align your sights on the target and fire the bullets will actually hit the target. Now the curve ball is that you will see two guns. Two rear sights and two front sights. Because you still have a dominant eye you are only supposed to "listen" to (or use) the image created by your dominant eye. So, focus on the target, aim at the target, and then close your "support" eye. One of the guns should disappear. Don't use the image of the gun that disappeared. Use the image that was still there after you closed your "support" eye.

Practice focusing on the target, seeing the two guns, and then opening and closing your support eye. Learn and know which image of the gun you are supposed to aim with. If you are right handed and right eye dominant you are supposed to use the "left" gun to aim and shoot.

The downside is that the sights on your gun will be blurry (because you are focusing on the target). So accuracy will marginally suffer in that regard. But, I have found that shooting at phantom targets seems to generate more misses than aiming with blurry sights at a single, clear target. Plus, in a real incident you can clearly see everything the bad guy is doing because they are in focus.

Neither technique I have mentioned works great at a distance. If you have to shoot a really small target or a target that is further away it is best to just close your support eye and make the shot with your front sight in crystal clear focus. But, the main purpose of shooting with both eyes open is to keep your peripheral vision and situational awareness at close range in case there is another attacker trying to surprise you (or what have you).

As far as I can tell (and someone should correct me if I'm wrong) is that both eyes open is not a precision shooting technique. It is a skill that should be practiced to permit a heightened situational awareness in close-range fights.

 

[Drail]

Nope, it can be used for great precision. You will either see two targets or two front sights depending on what you are focusing on. You should be focusing hard on the front sight. The trick is to train your brain to not see things the way you have used them all of your life - your brain wants to resolve two images into one in order to have depth perception. You don't need depth perception to hit a target. It is difficult for some people and impossible for others. But once learned it is a valuable skill. I learned how to do it and have never gone back to using just one eye even on a long gun with a scope. The best written work on this subject is Brian Enos' book - Practical Shooting - Beyond the Fundamentals. Almost all of the top practical shooters have mastered the technique.

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

@Drail: Right, so if I am supposed to be focusing on the front sight I will see two targets if I keep both of my eyes open. When I aim at the target on the right my shots hit to the right of the real target. If I aim at the target on the left my shots hit to the left of the real target. So I have to estimate the middle and shoot at that. That isn't as conducive to precision as simply closing my weak eye. That is unless you have some pointers for me.

The trick is to train your brain to not see things the way you have used them all of your life...

How am I supposed to be training my eyes to see what? This isn't really giving me a vector to improve my skills.

I learned how to do it...

You learned how to do what, specifically? Obviously you are talking about shooting with both eyes open. But, it seems I can either see where the target actually is or I can have a clear front sight... not both at the same time.

I think I speak for everyone when I say I would be very grateful if you enlightened us. Thank you in advance.

 

[Drail]

I will attempt to explain but Brian Enos' book is much more detailed. When I shoot I "see" one image looking down the top of the slide and the front sight in sharp focus with my right eye. The target is slightly blurred but you can still make out where the center of it is. The other eye "sees" an image looking down the side of the slide and also the edge of the front sight (also in sharp focus). If you can relax you will see one front sight and it will seem to look semi transparent - you can actually "see" through the front sight and "see" the target at the same time. As I said, the "trick" is to relax and let it happen - the brain will fight it and try to resolve the two images into one stereo image. It is a very unnatural thing to do and the brain will fight it. You are feeding your brain two images simultaneously but NOT resolving them together. Some people never learn to do it and some will pick up it quickly. Keep in mind that your eye can only resolve a sharp focus on an object at one distance - it will be either the rear sight, the front sight, or the target. It needs to be the front sight. The rear sight and target will fuzz a little but that's OK. All of this assumes (in my case anyway) that you are right handed and your master eye is also your right eye. Have I lost you yet? Do you know which eye is your master eye? You can practice this at home by holding up one finger as a front sight in front of your master eye and sighting it on a small object, say a light switch. Now relax and just watch what happens (hopefully). If it appears that your finger is suddenly semi transparent and you can see the switch through your finger - you're doing it. But you have to relax and let it happen. If you try to force this on your brain it will resist. Humans evolved over millions of years to "see" with two eyes in order to judge the distance to any danger they may happen upon. With only one eye you will have no depth perception but you will still be able to see an object. Please read Brian's book. It helped me with practical shooting immensely when I first started. One "crutch" he used when learning this was to place a piece of frosted Scotch tape over the lens in front of his left eye. This helps the brain to focus more on the image from your right eye but still allows light to enter the left eye. You might start by placing a patch on your glasses and completely blocking the off eye but you really need to have some light enter the off eye. Physically closing one eye actually places strain on the open eye and reduces its acuity. This is the main reason for learning to shoot with both eyes. If you master it seems that you are aware of much more going on in your peripheral vision, like brass flying off to the side. A bird, for example has eyes mounted on the sides of its head and cannot see the way humans do. They see two separate images. Hope this helps and you don't just write me off as a lunatic (you wouldn't be the first). This is like trying to describe Zen on an Internet forum. The part that gives most people trouble is trying to "make it happen". You must just "let it happen". Sorry for making this so long.

 

[Warp]

Thrasher...my situation is exactly the same. It took me a [long] while to figure out what was going on, too. I had the rear sights on some my Glocks drifted to the right a bit, but I shot centered on the target. Consistently. Even at moderate distances (25 yards). But when I really focused down, squinted my off eye more, lined everything up...bullseye type shooting...my groups moved to the right.

On most of them. But not on one. One had the rear sight smack dab in the middle, and it shot centered up...both eyes open or really taking my time squinting my off eye and lining it all up. I had no idea what was going on between the different guns and ways of sighting.

FINALLY I figured out it was just what you described...not having an equal amount of space between the sides of the front sight, and the rear sight(s), when shooting with one eye open. The reason I didn't notice it on some guns was because the front sight literally filled the entire groove of the rear sight perfectly whereas others had more space.

As mentioned, getting rid of the dots on the rear sight helps. I had started putting Ameriglo Operator night sights on my Glocks, which is perfect for this. The front sight post is green tritium and has a bright white outline. The rear sight is solid black and has yellow tritium.

I still haven't totally "solved" my problem, but as long as I shoot the same way all the time (both eyes open), my hits stay consistently centered, so I'm satisfied with that. (and we aren't talking too much of a difference, I really noticed it when shooting at 50 yards, as my group was half on/half off the silhouette instead of centered on the torso when I squinted)

 

[bainter1212]

Try this. I think the exercise alone will demonstrate why your shots pull to one side when alternating between both eyes or one.

To find out which is your dominant eye, point your finger at a distant object with both eyes open. First close one eye and then the other. Your finger will remain lined up with the object when your dominant eye is open.

I am 20/15 in my left, 20/40 right, and right handed. I don't fight the dominance. I shoot all pistols right-handed / left eyed, all my rifles are lefties.

I do the same. I am right handed/ left eye dominant. I don't fight it, I just adjust for it by cocking my head a bit.

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

OP:

So, I did some more both eyes open practice and I noticed that I didn't observe things closely enough.

If I focus on the front sight there will be two targets, one front sight and two rear sights. Only one rear sight will have the front sight inside it.

Why is this? Because your eyes are focused on the front sight, so there should be only one front sight (though your support eye can see some of the side of the front sight). From your dominant eye's perspective the front sight is inside the rear sight's notch and the target is behind the front sight. From your support eye's perspective the front sight is to the left of the rear sight and the target is to the left of the front sight. The same thing happens to your dominant eye if you turn your wrist so that the muzzle of the gun moves to the left. The eyes are in two different spots so there are two different perspectives. So, you just have to ignore the rear sight and the target from your support eye's perspective. And then the bullets will hit the target.

As far as what Drail is talking about... you can "see the switch through your finger" or the bullseye through your front sight if your eyes are focusing on the target (not the front sight). If your eyes are young enough (mine are) you can rapidly toggle your point of focus from the target to the front sight and back. So you can achieve a clear-ish front sight and a clear-ish target because your brain can remember the front sight and remember the target when you had that particular object in focus. But, you can't see the target "through" the front sight unless your eyes are focused on the target (which means you aren't focused on the front sight anymore).

This is what I was talking about in my initial post. You can either have the front sight in focus or the target in focus. If the front sight is in focus then you have to remember to aim at the target your dominant eye sees and ignore the target and the rear sight your support eye sees. If the target is in focus you will be able to see the target through the front sight (but the front sight will be blurry and transparent because it is not in focus). You will also see two guns (two rear sights and two front sights) if you focus on the target.

So, from what Drail said, it seems that Brian Enos encourages keeping the target in focus and aiming with the transparent and blurry front sight. If your eyes are good enough at changing focal planes rapidly (switching between the front sight and the target) then you can have the best of both worlds. But, only one will actually be in focus at a time so keep that in mind for future reference.

 

[Drail]

Never mind.

 

[Thrash1982]

To all that have posted, thank you very much for these suggestions. Hopefully I'll be able to get out and try some of these techniques in the next couple weeks. I've found a couple drills that I plan to work on that focus heavily on accuracy. The thing that gets me is that I used to be a pretty good shot with a pistol. Really goes to show that if you don't use it you lose it.

I'm right eye, right hand dominant. For the last few years I seem to have been focusing more on the target than the front sight. Maybe that's my problem and something I need to experiment with. My eyes definitely want to focus on the target rather than the front sight. We'll see if a couple boxes of ammo with each technique can tell me which one works better for me.

 

[Warp]

You definitely want to focus on the front sight.

Other than quick/fast/close shooting with a red dot sight or holo sight, you pretty much always want to focus on the front sight or the optic's reticle

 

[Thrash1982]

Finally had a chance to get out and shoot on Friday. I tried my best to focus on the front sight with both eyes open and concentrated on getting a consistent trigger pull. I was shooting a SIG P226 at a brown cardboard target that I had drawn 2-3 inch diameter dots on with a sharpie. All groups were still to the left.

Here's a few of the problems I was having.

• Because of the lighting where I was there was a lot of glare on the sights.
• The dots on the brown target didn't provide enough contrast to clearly see them.
• The SIGs sights are old, burned out tritium night sights. Not very conducive to accuracy.

I'd have brought a different pistol with me but the SIG is the only 9mm pistol I have with a threaded barrel and I really wanted to try out my new Octane 9 HD lol. But here's the weird thing. When I put the can on the gun it blocked my sights, but the next group I shot was centered.

I think my next step is to put my plain black sights back on my Kimber Custom II and get some better targets that are more conducive to getting good sight alignment.