HD shotgun... Pistol grip or standard stock?

[Zach S]

Put your money where your mouth is!

I have, several times. I always win...

If you're ever up in NC, or I'm ever in FL, we'll each toss $100 in a hat. We'll set five targets up, and see who can hit them all the fastest, and who get better hits. You use your hollywood gun, I'll use my cumbersome, full-stocked 590. Ammo must be suitable for defense (4 buck or bigger, low-recoil okay). Winner gets the hat.

BTW, there was only one time where the PGO guy hit all the targets.

 

[shockwave]

As a nudge in the right direction, practice moving to a position of low cover and concealment, and firing a full-stocked long gun from various field positions besides standing. In the extremely unlikely even of a home invasion requiring you to defend yourself in your bedroom, taking cover behind the bed or some other cover/concealment and firing from a kneeling position will make you ten times as effective as any possible scenario involving you firing a pistol-gripped shotgun from a supine position, lying in your bed.

A long quote above, and it's the way I tend to think. Gain the best vantage. I'm getting a shoulder stock and will evaluate both, because the points above are valid. But see this video. Inside the home, that should be sufficient to resolve difficulties.

 

[oneounceload]

You definitely have to aim a shotgun, just like anything else. You may get a "pattern" as the distance increases, but up close, bird shot, buck shot, it doesnt matter, its all basically a slug of sorts.

Close, but not really true - shotguns are pointed, not aimed (except for static targets) - as to patterns, not even close - pattern is determined by the choke (or lack of) in the barrel. hundreds of pellets are NOT a slug, even at bedroom distances. While the pattern MAY be small at those distances, there is still a pattern and little pellets spread out do NOT hit with the same mass as a solid slug

 

[Sam1911]

hundreds of pellets are NOT a slug, even at bedroom distances. While the pattern MAY be small at those distances, there is still a pattern and little pellets spread out do NOT hit with the same mass as a solid slug

To support your argument, (at the risk of repeating myself), all should look at this:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958&start=0

It puts a rather definitive nail in the "pretty much all a slug" argument.

-Sam

 

[rogerjames]

Zach, I admire your competitive spirit . My original question was a sincere inquiry that led me to answer my own question.

 

[Sam1911]

My original question was a sincere inquiry that led me to answer my own question.

"We can provide a little advice. Taking it is up to you."

Good luck!

-Sam

 

[rogerjames]

I am glad that you would prefer to shoulder your weapon. I agree with the premise. My new question is... what will you do when I grab my pistol shot? Ignore it cause it's not normal?

 

[Fred Fuller]

Roger,

Are you anywhere near Lakeland, FL? Randy Cain has a shotgun class there in June. See http://www.guntactics.com/ for details. The facility is Southern Exposure Training, http://www.southernexposuretraining.com/ .

Randy is probably the biggest 'sleeper' among the relatively small cadre of world-class defensive shooting instructors. If there's any way at all you can get to this class, I'd heartily recommend it.

fwiw,

lpl

 

[Sam1911]

Speaking for Zach, I think he was intending to take your hat, and your $100, if you were willing to take the bet.

Speaking for my comments, I'm not going to visit your bedroom (even if you say "Pretty Please?") so it isn't me you have to impress with your shooting.

If my disinterest in breaking-and-entering your home convinces you of the superiority of your strategy, then I suppose you have answered your question to your own satisfaction.

And the odds really are that your apartment will never be invaded anyway, so why stress about it, right?

Have a wonderful night!

-Sam

 

[rogerjames]

My original post was about the best 12gauge scenario to protect my family. My original question was to seek the difference between a pistol grip and a standard stock 12 gauge setup. Many members responded that a pistol grip set up is only relevant in Hollywood. I disagreed and challenged those that feel a 12 gauge pistol set up is not relevant to home security... to illegally enter my property and verify their opinion. <..........>

 

[oneounceload]

If you're ever up in NC, or I'm ever in FL, we'll each toss $100 in a hat. We'll set five targets up, and see who can hit them all the fastest, and who get better hits. You use your holloywood gun, I'll use my combersome, full-stocked 590. Ammo must be suitable for defense (4 buck or bigger, low-recoil okay). Winner gets the hat.

Or we could make it more challenging - say 100 targets over 14 stations on a sporting course - nothing over 1oz of 7-1/2's - bring your HD gun; maybe we'll do $100/target......

Challenges can go many different ways............

Only two shells when there's two targets.........

There's more to shotguns than some hd course, ya know.......

 

[AK103K]

Close, but not really true - shotguns are pointed, not aimed (except for static targets) - as to patterns, not even close - pattern is determined by the choke (or lack of) in the barrel. hundreds of pellets are NOT a slug, even at bedroom distances. While the pattern MAY be small at those distances, there is still a pattern and little pellets spread out do NOT hit with the same mass as a solid slug

I've always aimed mine for the most part, but if you want to point yours, have at it.

At close distances, including across the room, you still have to pick a point on the target and shoot it, just kind of pointing it in the direction is going to be literally hit of miss. Same goes for anything else.

Pattern wise, yes, the farther out you go, the larger the group tends to get, depending on choke, or lack of it, but even with a cylinder bored gun, at close range its still going to be tight, and you still need to physically shoot the target, not at it.

 

[Justin]

My original post was about the best 12gauge scenario to protect my family. My original question was to seek the difference between a pistol grip and a standard stock 12 gauge setup. Many members responded that a pistol grip set up is only relevant in Hollywood. I disagreed and challenged those that feel a 12 gauge pistol set up is not relevant to home security... to illegally enter my property and verify their opinion. I received notice that nobody is interested in verifying their bull****... as I expectected... so here we sit

Care to post your address?

 

[rogerjames]

macho BS?? What are you talking about? I started this thread with questions. If you say that a pistol grip is only a Hollywood weapon, that is only your opinion unless you provide evidence. If you don't provide proof, then I challenge you to support your opinion. Since many of you dismiss a 12 gauge with a pistol grip as an unreliable weapon, it is reasonable to ask weather you would confront me, knowing that I possess an unreliable weapon

 

[rogerjames]

Care to post your address?

Justin, I am not sure what address you are referring to, but I will post whatever you are interested in.

 

[AK103K]

If it was me, you wouldnt ever know there was a confrontation.

People sure do have strange thoughts on how a fight goes. Next thing you know, we'll have rules.

 

[Justin]

Roger, there are a lot of people on this forum who've gained experience through trial and error, attending defensive classes from world-class instructors, as well as shooting competitively.

None of them, not a single one, recommends the use of a pistol grip only shotgun for home defense.

Putting thousands of rounds down range has a tendency to help one understand what is and is not the most effective method for doing something, and thumping your chest on an internet gun forum impresses absolutely none of them.

 

[oneounceload]

I received notice that nobody is interested in verifying their bull****... as I expectected... so here we sit

THAT comment is macho BS and uncalled for here, IMO. You want to use an inadequate weapon to defend yourself, go ahead - but to call out folks like you're some kind of rambo wannabe is uncalled for

 

[Justin]

Roger, you said this:

difference between a pistol grip and a standard stock 12 gauge setup. Many members responded that a pistol grip set up is only relevant in Hollywood. I disagreed and challenged those that feel a 12 gauge pistol set up is not relevant to home security... to illegally enter my property and verify their opinion.

So, when I asked this:

Care to post your address?

It would seem rather self-evident that I was inquiring about the location of the domicile in which you reside.

 

[Justin]

In the meantime, I would like everyone to know that I currently keep my home tiger-free via the use of a special tiger-repelling rock.

Clearly, since I've never been attacked by any tigers, my tiger-repelling rock is the best defense against such creatures.

 

[rogerjames]

Sorry Justin,
I was confused, I get your point.

My point is... for all of those that are so convinced that a pistol grip is an incompetent shot gun set up.... How many are willing to test that opinion in real life? I am not trying to threaten anybody. I just bet that many of those who say the PG is a BS SD setup would never challenge that situation if confronted with it in real life, thus discreditting their opinion that it is not a reliable form of self defense.

 

[oneounceload]

Having had a PGO gun (back when I was a young uninformed lad)that now wears a full stock, I know exactly what you're talking about......and it is still wrong - a full stock is heads and tails above a PGO for control and pointability

 

[Justin]

Again, I am unaware of any of the major trainers, competitive shooters, or defensive instructors who advocate the use of a PGO-shotgun as a home-defense weapon.

Having seen someone try to use one firsthand in a practical shooting match that involved moving through tight spaces and shooting from improvised positions, I was quite convined that PGO shotguns are simply an inferior choice.

Having shot them on static ranges, under the best circumstances (sunny day, good weather, when I'm awake and in control of the situation) it was abundantly clear that they are simply harder to use as compared to a traditionally-stocked gun.

 

[cindynles]

Why not get a side-folding pistol grip stock? Choate makes some rock solid ones. You get the best of both worlds, folded for storage, open for serious use.

http://www.riflestock.com/catalog_p...ductCode=26&ProductSubCodeID=175&NewProduct=0

 

[Sam1911]

How many are willing to test that opinion in real life? I am not trying to threaten anybody. I just bet that many of those who say the PG is a BS SD setup would never challenge that situation if confronted with it in real life, thus discreditting their opinion that it is not a reliable form of self defense.

Are you really willing to settle for such a poor argument? No one here is going to break into your house (as you yourself said, "illegally") whether you're armed with an RPG-7 or a dirty look and an unkind word. Claiming that these contributors' suggestions are irrelevant because they won't go to great expense, great inconvenience, and some level of risk of injury (however slight ), to BREAK THE LAW, is so short-sighted as to appear deliberately daft. As I gently alluded to before, no one here cares quite THAT much about your safety as to perform this service for you.

Obviously a shotgun, even a .410 bore single-shot with no stock and a bent barrel, can inflict an uncomfortable, life-threatening, or even lethal wound. Even if fired by a man in his pajamas lying on his back, firing between his feet from his waterbed, after being rudely roused from a deep sleep!

That doesn't make such a set-up a wise idea. If it's all you've got, it's better than a paper cut or bad breath to scare off an attacker. If your PGO is all you've got, make do with it until you can improve your gear. But don't fool yourself into thinking it is nearly as effective as a slightly improved weapon would be.

If you come to a site peopled by knowledgeable, experienced, well-trained, and deeply studied practitioners of various forms of armed self-defense and you ask, "what's the best way?" Why do you argue when you're handed the answer? If you just wanted confirmation that you had it all figured out, you could have asked the mirror.

-Sam