rogerjames
member
Hey guys... Sam, Justin, oneounce,...etc. I appreciate all the advice. That's why I love this forum. I will always defend my point of view and I hope this facilitates dialogue and is not seen as a source of conflict.
HD shotgun... Pistol grip or standard stock?
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rogerjames
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Sam,
'm not asking anyone to break into break into my house or support my arguement, and I am quite confused that you think you are part of the equation [ /I]
'm not asking anyone to break into break into my house or support my arguement, and I am quite confused that you think you are part of the equation [ /I]
Zach S
Member
Sam addressed that already in the end of post #25.
I mentioned an alternative in post 26.
Well spoken.
How 'bout we turn the table? You break into my house. Be sure to bring $100 and a hat.
reckless carolinian
Member
Zach, what does a guy have to do for just the hat? I could use a new hat(and this thread is in serious need of both a reality check and some serious cooling off.)
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
You said:
Really? But...
You said:
And before that...
Apparently not.
Either my reading comprehension isn't up to snuff or ... your (is there such a thing as "writing comprehension?") ...
So others are invited to "put their money where their mouths are" but I'm not?
Gee, thanks!
-Sam
rogerjames
member
OK... I'm an idiot... I am learning. Bare with me...
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
rogerjames, it's quite easy to disagree with others' opinions without being macho and hostile. If you feel that others are being snarky toward you, either ignore them or hit the "tell a moderator" button.
That goes for everyone else, as well, not just roger.
Moderator hat off: The PGO shotgun lacks the stability for control whether pointing or aiming, as compared to that provided by the conventional buttstock That holds true for rifles and sub-machine guns, as well. Lord knows, I've messed around with all that stuff, these last (harumph) years.
Another problem is that if there is a malfunction, you can't buttstroke, stab into the sternum, or rake downward across the face of an opponent.
A positive aspect to a conventional stock, also, is that if you carry at a rather vertical port arms position while searching for the Bad Guy, you obviate his ability to grab and disarm; you can turn in any direction without snagging the barrel on anything, and you can quickly lower to a firing position. Last, your wrist is not bent in an uncomfortable manner, which is the case on a PG long-stock shotgun. Push down with the weak hand, pull the stock to your ribcage with the strong-side elbow and turn your body to point.
Works really good for triple-taps with a Thompson, as well.
So, overall, yeah, include me in that number which says, "Hollywood"...
That goes for everyone else, as well, not just roger.
Moderator hat off: The PGO shotgun lacks the stability for control whether pointing or aiming, as compared to that provided by the conventional buttstock That holds true for rifles and sub-machine guns, as well. Lord knows, I've messed around with all that stuff, these last (harumph) years.
Another problem is that if there is a malfunction, you can't buttstroke, stab into the sternum, or rake downward across the face of an opponent.
A positive aspect to a conventional stock, also, is that if you carry at a rather vertical port arms position while searching for the Bad Guy, you obviate his ability to grab and disarm; you can turn in any direction without snagging the barrel on anything, and you can quickly lower to a firing position. Last, your wrist is not bent in an uncomfortable manner, which is the case on a PG long-stock shotgun. Push down with the weak hand, pull the stock to your ribcage with the strong-side elbow and turn your body to point.
Works really good for triple-taps with a Thompson, as well.
So, overall, yeah, include me in that number which says, "Hollywood"...
Al LaVodka
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I'm kinda surprised by the temperature here and especially some of the quarters the heat is coming from.
A pistol-grip-only shotgun is obviously not the best choice. Its been said. Everyone gets it. I think (hope) everyone agrees. But sometimes it is the only practical choice, and if a shotgun 1/3rd shorter is required, I'd say that's one reason why popular pistol grips are still made, make the best of it through improvements available today, practice, and move on.
Al
A pistol-grip-only shotgun is obviously not the best choice. Its been said. Everyone gets it. I think (hope) everyone agrees. But sometimes it is the only practical choice, and if a shotgun 1/3rd shorter is required, I'd say that's one reason why popular pistol grips are still made, make the best of it through improvements available today, practice, and move on.
Al
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Onward Allusion
Member
Try this experiment if you can get your hands on a pistol grip shotgun AND a regular stock shotgun. Make sure it is unloaded and have a friend knock the SG out of your hands or even just knock your SG away from its aim. Then I would recommend stopping by a range and run each style through its paces. Please share your findings.
Onward Allusion
Member
As an aside, why hasn't anyone suggested the Taurus Judge line as an alternative? It would seem ideal for a HD scenario, especially in the confines of a condo.
if you are set on a PGO, opt for a GREEN laser mounted on a forearm rail or even to the mag tube... THEN.. train, train, train... and there will be just one more thing to justafiably increase your confidence that your shot will go where you are planning.
all that said, I agree that a shotgun should be fired from the shoulder.
all that said, I agree that a shotgun should be fired from the shoulder.
rswartsell
Member
I can't believe that moderators in this thread are are carrying gasoline instead of water to quench a conversation that does more to set back reasonable RKBA interests than the Brady bunch. Our interests in firearms, training and self discipline CANNOT surrender to our egos or competetive nature.
OP, you asked for experienced opinion and you got it, I happen to concur with it, regardless of what our real opponents think we do not even joke about using firearms to settle simple differences of opinon. Remember moderators? Moderator-one who moderates.
OP, you asked for experienced opinion and you got it, I happen to concur with it, regardless of what our real opponents think we do not even joke about using firearms to settle simple differences of opinon. Remember moderators? Moderator-one who moderates.
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Why don't we let the moderators decide what needs to moderated. That is their job and they do it well without criticism. Back on topic I like the point someone earlier brought up about conventional stocks and the ability to butt stroke. With a pistol grip you definitely are sacrificing some control over your own weapon if a struggle was to happen between you and an intruder.
Guns and more
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Um,.............No.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Well, first you have to be willing to advocate .410 bore over the 12 ga. he already has. Now there are valid reasons someone must choose the tiny .410 over a more powerful round with a higher payload, but if you are an adult in reasonably good shape (outside of looking for a challenge on the skeet field) those reasons don't really apply to you.
Second, you have to be willing to suggest a handgun over a long-gun when it is solid, unassailable FACT that the average un- or semi-trained shooter can make much more accurate hits, faster -- in just about all situations -- with a long-gun than a handgun.
That's kind of two strikes against. Consider that the most effective load you can stuff into one is 3 pieces of 00 Buck (that's three projectiles at .33 caliber and about 55 gr.), and the Judge kind of defeats the best arguments of EACH of the schools of thought on defensive terminal ballistics. (Small/light projectiles instead of larger, heavier bullets from a handgun. Only three of them instead of the "cloud of death" proposed by defensive shotgun fans.)
Taurus has great marketing. But serious, experienced, defensive shooting folks are staying away from the Judge in droves.
-Sam
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76shuvlinoff
Member
... a tiger repelling rock...
I'm sorry but that's the best quote of the thread , it's on topic and it speaks volumes about some home defense scenarios.
shuttin up now boss
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M2
Member
Easy test. Get a couple of wooded dowels from any hardware store and cut it to the length of a pistol-gripped shotgun and one with a full stock. Now, try walking around your house and see how each works, especially in corners and stairwells. I think you will find that the shorter "shotgun" allows you the easier ability to keep the weapon aimed. And at close quarters, (less than 10'), you will find it to be as accurate as any other weapon, to include a pistol. The bad rap people give pistol-gripped shotguns for HD is undeserved, but once you own one and practice with it you will realize that it is the best set-up.
Oh, and if I ever had to use mine in a SD situation, I wouldn't worry about how bad the recoil was. My only priority would be neutralizing the threat...
Oh, and if I ever had to use mine in a SD situation, I wouldn't worry about how bad the recoil was. My only priority would be neutralizing the threat...
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Just because someone is a moderator doesn't mean they give up their right to express a valuable opinion based out of many years of experience. He's not abusing his authority, he's aiding to spread truth and value in a conversation that needs it. To tell the Mods that they can't share their experience and wisdom just because there are some less-, or "differently"-experienced folks who disagree with them would be to cut the heart and the light out of THR. Good moderation applies the standards of decency and responsibility for which this site stands but that doesn't mean that these well-educated folks are not allowed to share their experience and add value to our conversations.
Second, talking clearly about the factual, demonstrable, and very important differences in types of shooting platforms does NOTHING to damage the RKBA movement! What kind of rubbish is this? Advising someone how to best employ a firearm for self defense plays right into the hands of the anti-gunners? Just an absurd claim.
No one was really even joking about that. The OP got a little overboard with his hyperbole, but even he eventually realized he was saying more than he meant. No worries -- we got it reigned back in. No one was advocating dueling pistols at dawn.
If you have a problem with a post or a thread, report it -- there's a button just for that. Don't be rude and snipe at the Mods, or claim to tell them their jobs. Thanks!
-Sam
Al LaVodka
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It is funny but silly.... a tiger repelling rock...
I'm sorry but that's the best quote of the thread , it's on topic and it speaks volumes about some home defense scenarios.
shuttin up now boss
A rock sitting there does nothing. Pick it up and hit the tiger, better. Make a stone club, an improvement. Stone axe, big improvement. Throw it, maybe better. Put it in a sling and hurl it, better still. Sharpen a stout flint spear from it, and it is better yet. Knap the flint and put it into your buck-n-ball loaded, bayonet-mounted, musket -- the best.
It was not a constructive analogy -- a pistol grip only shotgun is far from a pet rock IMHO. Maybe not others'.
Unless and until someone documents lower and unacceptable hit probability and one-shot-stops here, this has been promoted to become a defensive thread arguing over shades of opinion.
Al
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Sometimes statements need to be juxtaposed directly for best effect...
Art's already got this answered:
Yup. The accepted best way. Take a class with a defensive shooting instructor. Show up with a PGO shotgun and they'll probably send you home -- or to the gun shop to find a full stock. Now, that's only reflective of the opinions of those who do this for a living, and after decades of training, practice, and experience, but don't hold that against them!
-Sam
Art's already got this answered:
Yup. The accepted best way. Take a class with a defensive shooting instructor. Show up with a PGO shotgun and they'll probably send you home -- or to the gun shop to find a full stock. Now, that's only reflective of the opinions of those who do this for a living, and after decades of training, practice, and experience, but don't hold that against them!
-Sam
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
You missed Justin's intent. He was saying that the PGO shotgun must be adequate since the OP hasn't been killed in a bedroom gunfight yet. Then again, he hasn't had a home invasion yet, and hasn't done realistic head-to-head testing, either. Similar to someone keeping a tiger-repelling rock and knowing it works because there haven't been any tigers in his yard, in Omaha or Antarctica.
"Yup, no tigers today...this is one GOOD rock!He was pointing out that assuming an item does a particular thing well -- without testing it realistically to see how well or poorly it may perform that function -- is absurd.
-Sam
amd6547
Member
This discussion comes up every couple months, as a quick search will reveal. It always devolves into an argument between those who refuse to see any value to the PGO shotgun, and those who have shot them successfully for years. Add in comments from those who have either never tried to shoot one with the proper technique, or shot one years ago with a mossberg pistol grip, which, while it works OK, is not really the best choice in shotgun pistol grips. Throw in a Youtube video of some moron holding it right in front of his face, and taking it in the teeth.
I use the speedfeed chickenhead grip, which functions like the grip on a standard buttstock held at the hip. It moderates recoil, and encourages point shooting, while allowing easy access to my Mossberg's top-mounted safety. My load of choice is full-power 00 buck, and with this combo, it is a simple matter to place pellets on target quickly and repeatedly at house interior size distances. I also own a Remington 11 riot gun with full-length stock, and it is nowhere near as handy indoors, nor can it be hidden away as easily.
All that having been said, I am much more likely to have a handgun or an M1 carbine in my hands if somebody decides to break in.
If you are unable to shoot a PGO shotgun well, and unwilling to learn the proper techniques that make it possible, then don't. It is a weapon with a long history of use on both sides of the law, probably dating back to the blunderbuss.
I use the speedfeed chickenhead grip, which functions like the grip on a standard buttstock held at the hip. It moderates recoil, and encourages point shooting, while allowing easy access to my Mossberg's top-mounted safety. My load of choice is full-power 00 buck, and with this combo, it is a simple matter to place pellets on target quickly and repeatedly at house interior size distances. I also own a Remington 11 riot gun with full-length stock, and it is nowhere near as handy indoors, nor can it be hidden away as easily.
All that having been said, I am much more likely to have a handgun or an M1 carbine in my hands if somebody decides to break in.
If you are unable to shoot a PGO shotgun well, and unwilling to learn the proper techniques that make it possible, then don't. It is a weapon with a long history of use on both sides of the law, probably dating back to the blunderbuss.
Al LaVodka
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Sam, I didn't miss the point. And you can see I'm not really taking sides except for an informed and friendly debate.You missed Justin's intent. He was saying that the PGO shotgun must be adequate since the OP hasn't been killed in a bedroom gunfight yet. Then again, he hasn't had a home invasion yet, and hasn't done realistic head-to-head testing, either. Similar to someone keeping a tiger-repelling rock and knowing it works because there haven't been any tigers in his yard, in Omaha or Antarctica.
He was pointing out that assuming an item does a particular thing well -- without testing it realistically to see how well or poorly it may perform that function -- is absurd.
-Sam
The tiger rock comparison took it to an absurd level to equate the poster's developing perspective as being just as misguided. It is more absurd to think, and inappropriate to imply, that a pistol grip only shotgun is as useless for HD. I assert that although it is not ideal, it is anything but useless, could and should be quite effective, and may in fact be the best choice in a particular circumstance. That analogy coming from Justin was a distraction, at best.
Al
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Onward Allusion
Member
Nope, not advocating .410 over 12 Ga, just the fact that there are better alternatives to a PG shotgun. IMO, a Taurus Judge in .410 is better than a pistol grip shot gun in a HD scenario, especially in close quarters, such as an apartment or condo. In fact, a handgun in a proper caliber is more suited for close quarter defense, but that's just me.
Not to turn this into a "what's better for HD argument", but shotguns, even 18.5 barreled ones are unwieldy, awkward, and heavy for a lot of users, especially women or those with physical issues. I chuckle and shake my head whenever someone suggests that their arthritic grandma who has problems racking the slide on a pistol, use a Remington 870 as their house gun.
I personally prefer a .45 or .40S&W with a light/laser loaded with frangible ammo as the house gun, but I live in a 2 story with hallways, stairs, & kids. So to each their own. For some, a Taurus Judge loaded with .410 is an ideal house gun. For others who live in the middle of no where an AK would be the ideal weapon. No blanket statements apply, but I would not use a PG shotgun in the OP's scenario.
Not to turn this into a "what's better for HD argument", but shotguns, even 18.5 barreled ones are unwieldy, awkward, and heavy for a lot of users, especially women or those with physical issues. I chuckle and shake my head whenever someone suggests that their arthritic grandma who has problems racking the slide on a pistol, use a Remington 870 as their house gun.
I personally prefer a .45 or .40S&W with a light/laser loaded with frangible ammo as the house gun, but I live in a 2 story with hallways, stairs, & kids. So to each their own. For some, a Taurus Judge loaded with .410 is an ideal house gun. For others who live in the middle of no where an AK would be the ideal weapon. No blanket statements apply, but I would not use a PG shotgun in the OP's scenario.
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