Heavy Bullets in .223

[hdwhit]

I have read several posts today where people were talking about using 75, 77 or 80 grain bullets in .223 Remington. Why is that? What I'm wanting to know is what makes you, as the person responding to the question, choose the bullet weight that you do - particularly if it is heavier than the "traditional" 55 grain bullet.

I'll go first. I started loading for .223 Remington when I got my first Ruger Mini-14. Most of the data at the time seemed to be trying to replicate the performance of the military 5.56x45 round so a lot of it was derived with barrels of about 22 or 24 inches with slow(er) powders. Well, with an 18 inch barrel, I had to go towards the faster end of the suitable powders. I tried several but IMR-4198 had the advangage of requiring 2 to 5 fewer grains to produce the same velocity so I got more loads per pound. And at the time, that was important because WAS an object.

I tried 45, 50, 55 & 60 gr bullets. That was pretty much what was available in the late 1970's. After trying various powders and various loads, I settled on the Hornday 60 gr Spitzer (Soft point & Hollow point). 20.3* gr of IMR-4198 got me 2,850 fps (per chronograph) whereas I could only get into the 3,000 fps neighborhood with 55 gr bullets. Without the longer barrel to allow a higher velocity to be developed, the muzzle energy of the 55 gr bullet at 3,000 fps and the 60 gr at 2,850 were effectively the same. Zeroed at 100 yards, they were around 2 inches high at 25 yards and 2 inches low at 200 yards and at any distance they were carrying enough velocity that they expanded nicely when they had to be used for hunting or nuisence animal control.

It has met my needs ever since and never failed to deliver satisfactory performance, so I have in essence "standardized" this load for myself.

* Note that this load was below maximum in Hornady Handbook #4 but in later editions, such as the Hornady Handbook #8, it is shown as above maximum. As I shoot up my existing stock loaded per Hornady #4, I will re-develop the load in accord with contemporary published data.

 

[someguy2800]

I prefer 50 grain varmint bullets for my uses due to economy but a long heavy bullet like a 75 grain BTHP match has considerably less wind drift at long range and there is a point where a long and slender bullet like that does shoot flatter than a lighter bullet. For me I can get varmint bullets that shoot just as well at 300 yards for half the cost an they make varmints explode, so thats my choice.

You never hear about it anymore but there was a time when 223 was used for long range match shooting and the normal bullets used were 77-90 grain match bullets.

 

[Llama Bob]

The primary reasons to use heavy bullets are ballistic coefficient and terminal performance. For factory match loads in my AR I use IMI M262 with the 77gr SMK projectile. Compared to M193, it has increased supersonic range, reduced wind deflection, and improved accuracy (although that's related to the powder charge consistency and bullet type moreso than the bullet weight).

 

[Inazone]

A lot of it indeed has to do with the heavier bullets, especially open-tip match (OTM) and other HP types, being flatter shooting and more accurate out of the prescribed rifle types. The military has been using 77gr OTM (SMK and TMK) for some time now, and the civilian market reflects that, with numerous manufacturers offering their own flavors of "heavy match" ammo utilizing bullets from Sierra, Hornady, etc. Even overseas manufacturers (PPU, PMC, Magtech) have gotten a piece of the action with varying degrees of commercial success. Hornady is really pushing their "Black" line, which includes a 75gr HP .223, and Speer has an LE line that runs up to 75gr in a bonded SP.

Now, how many competitive shooters are running the heavy stuff, I don't know. A lot of folks promote "heavier is better" for defensive use, especially in carbines and SBRs with 1:7 barrels, and those who hunt things like deer and wild hogs where .223 is legal for game.

 

[stoky]

I like Mini 14s, but if yours is an older one it probably doesn't have a fast enough twist rate for 75/77gr bullets. A lot of 20" HBARs, used in 600yd competition, have 1:7 twist barrels.
http://sunflowerammo.blogspot.com/2012/11/ruger-mini-1430-barrel-twist-rates.html

 

[CoalTrain49]

I thought it had to do with barrel twist. Fast twist/heavy bullet, slow twist/light bullet.

I remember reading someplace that 5.56 AR barrels were 1/12 twist originally and 55gr worked pretty well. Now they are 1/7 twist to stabilize the 77 grn. bullets used by the military.

I'm not an AR guy so I could be out to lunch.

 

[Varminterror]

It sounds like you've made up your mind, and also sounds like what you've been using works for you.

But, I'll offer my experience with the 223rem and varying bullet weights anyway...

I've killed hundreds and hundreds of coyotes and prairie dogs and dozens on dozens of hogs with the 50grn Vmax. They work fine for this job.

When I choose to shoot longer range, the 75 Amax has a fantastic BC, while still being a very cheap bullet to shoot in volume. The 73 ELD-M is a new bullet, but also is inexpensive and has a high BC, with the added benefit of being designed to be loaded to mag length. The 77smk is another high BC bullet which can be loaded effectively to mag length. I've shot the 80 and 90 Berger a bit as well. Despite running lower velocities, they offer distinct advantages down range for long range shooting. With a BC north of .375 on all of these, compared to the BC south of .250 for the typical 50-55grn bullets, so life is considerably easier out past 400 with these bullets, and if I decide to send them after coyotes at those ranges, the result is favorable.

Shoot what you like, but there ARE advantages to shooting 75grn+ bullets in 223/5.56, 105+ in 6mm's, 160+ in 7mm, 180+ in 30 cals...

 

[Robert]

I use 77gr SMK bullets over 4064 in my 20" 1:7 AR with outstanding results. I've put 5 into an area the size of my thumbnail at 100y off of my range bag with only a 4x ACOG. In my rifle they just work.

 

[HB]

Under 300 yards they aren't really needed (unless you are shooting something not paper/bigger than a coyote). For my uses a 223 is for shooting both paper and small critters/rocks/steel so varmint type bullets are ideal.

It's been a long time since I shot high power but I believe those guys shoot 77gr SMKs or similar loads almost exclusively at full range courses. They might shoot cheaper/lighter bullets at reduced courses but not sure.

 

[RPZ]

It depends on your intended use. As pointed out by stokey the Mini-14, as the original M-16s, had a barrel twist rate optimized for 55 grain bullets. Later down the road ARs and other rifles were produced with faster twist rates for heavier longer bullets. For long range target shooting and some hunting applications there are now a pile of heaver bullet loadings, and bullets for handloaders, which perform superbly that require these faster twist rates. They have taken the .223/5.56 to a new level of potential

 

[FL-NC]

Most of my experience with 223/5.56 is with rounds I used in the military, or civilian clones. i don't reload. My favorite load for general purpose use is M193, the basic 55 grain ball round as designed for the M16A1, and its various clones. It is mild to shoot, not too hard on steel targets, and sufficiently accurate for most of my shooting that supports my job- primarilly engagements from 5 - 100 meters, with some engagements as far as 300 meters. This is done using an AR carbine with a red dot sight. For precision work, at 100 meters and beyond and for hunting applications, I prefer the MK 262 (77 grain SMK) or the Hornady 75 grain BTHP match. These engagements reflect the longer distances in some stages of 3 gun, as well as hunting scenarios. The accuracy of these rounds just plain outperforms anything else I have used- although I'm certain there's equal or better off the shelf ammo out there. Also, the terminal performance that I have seen from both of those rounds on live targets has been superb. These rounds are fired from my higher end AR's (Larue, Barnes Precision) or the AR I built for hunting (suppressed) or my suppressed Mossberg MVP thunder ranch, also suppressed.

 

[farmerboy78]

The answer has been said throughout all the responses. The heavier bullets are used to extend the effective range of the .223 capabilities. The higher bc will give less wind drift, shoot flatter at longer range that most lighter bullets, and provides more impact energy at longer distance. The longer and heavier bullets pushed the need for a faster twist barrel to stabilize the round. I run a 1in8" twist barrel on my woa upper. My load is 77gr nosler cc, lake city brass, cci primer, 23.6gr tac loaded to mag length. It has a very similar trajectory as a 175gr .308 round...

 

[jmr40]

Heavy for caliber, high BC bullets make a big difference down range and the trend is toward that in all calibers. At one time the goal was to shoot light bullets fast for flat trajectory. And while the flatter trajectory made hits somewhat easier out to 300ish yards, performance suffered on game and wind blew them off course easily. Today's better optics and the use of range finders have made flat trajectory of no real importance. The difference never was all that great.

Shooters today have figured out that impact velocity down range is far more important than muzzle velocity. I don't load for 223, but consider this comparison with my 308. I can start 150 gr bullets 200 fps faster than 178/180 gr bullets. But by the time the bullets are at 300 yards the speed is a virtual tie. There is only about 1" more bullet drop with the heavier bullet, but energy levels are significantly better at all ranges. Beyond 300 yard the heavier bullet is moving faster and hitting even harder, the gap only widens as range increases.

In short the lighter bullets don't offer any real advantages at close to medium ranges, and are a distinct disadvantage at long range.

 

[hdwhit]

Varmintterror wrote:
It sounds like you've made up your mind, and also sounds like what you've been using works for you.

Well, back in 1979 I did made up my mind that of the available powders and bullets, the 60 gr out of my Mini-14 was pretty close to optimal. Between 1980 and 1983, I then loaded 2,000 of them (on top of nearly 1,000 52 gr hollow points that had been my first "optimal" load before I got my hands on the 60s) and I'm still shooting my way through them. I will be through with that legacy ammunition shortly and I will need to either resume production of the 60 gr rounds or switch to something else.

I started this thread because I wanted people who use heavier bullets to explain their rationale for doing so. That way I could have a basis for making an informed decision as to whether to move to a heavier bullet and if so, how heavy.

 

[Slamfire]

I have put tens of thousands of 223 rounds down range in NRA competition. The baseline used to be a 69 gr SMK out to 300 yards and an 80 grain SMK at 600 yards. I won many medals at Camp Perry with the 69's out to 300 yards, the things hammer. However, beyond 300 yards, the 69 grain bullet floats in the wind like a wiffle ball. Shoots great in a no wind situation but seldom does a no wind situation last for long.

I don't know when the 75 Hornady was developed, I was using them in the early nineties, but that bullet would feed from the magazine and shoots well at 600 yards. Then Sierra came out with the 80 grain SMK which had the ballistics of the 308 168 SMK at distance. However, the thing is so long you have to single load the round as it does not feed from the magazine. To fix that, Sierra came out with their 77 gr SMK. My All Guard buds shoot that round, claim they can't tell any difference in wind bucking abilities to the 80 gr SMK. I got to talk to AMU shooters at Talladega, they were using Bergers, I forget which weight, but these were magazine feed rounds. I guess the market has walked away from the 80 gr SMK.

A 1:9 barrel twist will shoot 69's, but won't stabilize bullets heavier than that. I used a 1:8 for the 69's, 75's, and 80's.

The 223 round is horrible at 1000 yards. The 175 SMK is actually a pretty good bullet out a 308 Win at 1000 yards and what I believe happened, the military teams got tired of losing to civilians with M1a's. So they lobbied and pulled strings and their buddy on the rules committee, Dennis Demille http://www.beingofservicerifle.com/interview-dennis-demille/ (ex Marine Team) managed to push through a rule change that made the AR10 a "service rifle". I have read his reasons for doing so on another forum, in my opinion they are specious. He was just keeping his bud's happy.

 

[FL-NC]

I've heard that a 1/8 is required to stabilize the heavy projectiles many times. I get consistent MOA or better groups in 75 and 77 grain from my Mossberg MVP (18" 1/9 suppressed) and 1.5 MOA or better from a garage built AR with a 16" DPMS barrel (heavy profile, 1/9- also suppressed).

 

[Bart B.]

I remember reading someplace that 5.56 AR barrels were 1/12 twist originally and 55gr worked pretty well.

Original military tests and rifles had 1:14 twists for the 5.56 NATO round. Same as the .22 caliber benchrest rifles winning matches with 50 to 55 grain bullets in 22" barrels.

Combat use soon proved the shorter M16 barrels didn't stabilize those bullets well enough and they tumbled quite a bit upon entry into the enemy. Accuracy was dismal at longer ranges. A 1:12 twist was immediately the standard. As heavier bullets came to pass for better ballistics at longer ranges, twist rates increased.

 

[salt&battery]

I use 77gr SMK bullets over 4064 in my 20" 1:7 AR with outstanding results. I've put 5 into an area the size of my thumbnail at 100y off of my range bag with only a 4x ACOG. In my rifle they just work.

Almost waste them at 100 yds 55-69 grain are a little cheaper. some of the long heavy bullets do not stabilize at 100 yds in certain rifles with a fast twist

 

[salt&battery]

I got a ruger 77 target rifle with the 2 stage trigger in 25-06 no need for that so I had it re barreled in 22-250 in 1x8 twist. a cheap excellent way to shoot long range. excellent results at 800 yds hornady 75 grain A- Max and now the hornady 80 grain

 

[CoalTrain49]

Under 300 yards they aren't really needed (unless you are shooting something not paper/bigger than a coyote). For my uses a 223 is for shooting both paper and small critters/rocks/steel so varmint type bullets are ideal.

It's been a long time since I shot high power but I believe those guys shoot 77gr SMKs or similar loads almost exclusively at full range courses. They might shoot cheaper/lighter bullets at reduced courses but not sure.

I reload and my max range is 200m. My rifle twist is 1 in 9. 55-60 grn is plenty for my needs and seems to be very accurate. I'll probably never try anything heavier than 60 grn.

 

[hdwhit]

CoalTrain49 wrote:
I reload and my max range is 200m. ... I'll probably never try anything heavier than 60 grn.

As you know from your replies to some of my other posts, there are no available spots longer than about 200 yards. So, when I'm hunting, I'm not shooting farther than 100 yards (often much less) or punching paper at the range I built across the top of the dam which is 225 meters (247 yards) at its longest point (and has a ridge behind it providing a natural backstop).

I see so many people gravitating towards heavier bullets for their 223 loads that I wanted to get the reason why before I went back into "production" with the 1,500 rounds of polished, resized, trimmed and primed brass that I have waiting for me to make a decision.

 

[hdwhit]

HB wrote:
Under 300 yards they aren't really needed (unless you are shooting something not paper/bigger than a coyote).

Every rifle I currently have is 22LR or 223. I have a Mini-14, two ARs that I am waiting to give my sons when they can take them, and a Savage Axis. About the only things the 223 gets used for are nuisence animals (beaver and muskrat when they are a threat to the dam) and no shot is over about 200 yards. Often, the rifle is used to administer a coup de grace to one caught in a trap.

The deer in the area run 85 to 125 pounds so I would not hesitate to try to take one under 100 yards if I liked the taste of venison.

As far as coyote go, they seem to only be active at night. In the 30+ years I have owned the farm, I have seen one. I was standing in a clearing and a pack approached and split with half running through the woods on my left side and half on the right. One coyote that looked like a pup wandered into the clearing trying to catch up to the pack. He got to within about 20 feet of me before he noticed I was standing there and did a dogleg around me and ran off into the bush.

 

[armoredman]

I have been posting about the 75gr Hornaday TAP bullets I got as a very welcome present..because I've never successfully loaded such a heavy bullet in this caliber. I tried an 80gr SMK in my Mini-14 years ago, and the results were terrible. That was when I was very new to reloading, as well. I started with light bullets in my BREN 805, 1-7 twist, but always wanted to see if the heavier ones really did work better.

But it works OK with light ones - this video from yesterday was with 50 gr MidwayUSA Dogtown JHPs. Yes, compared to 90% of members here my shooting sucks. Target is 3/4 scale IDPA steel.

 

[hdwhit]

Thank you, armored man, for taking the time to record and post that.

It also makes me a little envious. While you were out doing that, I was sitting in an uncomftably warm office listening to someone try to tell me the same thing they had just said fifteen minutes before for the umpteenth time.

 

[armoredman]

It evens out - while you are snuggled in a nice warm bed, I am walking the rounds behind the wire.