Help Id an old Smith & Wesson 38 Snub

[whoppa]

Hi, I was given the following Smith and Wesson 38 Snub nose, and was hoping someone could give me some info on what I have.

- Serial #: 924050
- Arsenal Inspection initials: "W.B."
- Other Markings: There is a Flaming Bomb followed by a "P" on the bottom of the handle. Frame says "Cal 38 Special" on one side. On the other is the S&W Trade Mark Logo
- Barrel Length: 1.5 inches
- Rear Site: none, front site looks like a triangle (not rounded)
- Finish: Blue
- Grips: appear to be walnut, not checkered

Can anyone date this for me? It is a valuable Smith and Wesson?
Is the barrel original to the gun or was it swapped to the snub nosed version?
An estimated value would be nice, just nice to know.

Thanks and happy new year!

 

[Oro]

There are a few non-standard things about that description which make it hard to say for certain what you are describing. For example, the caliber would not be stamped on the frame, unless done by someone else as a conversion.

A common answer is it may be a UK-model Victory modified after the war. I think some photos are going to be necessary to really give you an answer. If you can't provide those, then I'd suggest reading the sticky at the top of the forum about "DOB for S&W" and the first post will describe needed descriptive information. The condition and finish on it matter in valuing it. Given the info, I'd say the range it might fall into is $75 to $250 depending upon what it looks like and how it functions.

 

[whoppa]

Great, I will try to get some pics up there tonight.... Functions great, good shooter.

 

[Jim K]

Some collectors call those Pre-Victory Models. It is not a Victory Model because the serial number does not begin with "V". The Victory model came about because S&W was closing on one million serial number and their numbering machines only went to six digits. Hence the prefix (someone chose "V for Victory) and a new start with V1.

There is some discrepancy about when the first Victory Model was produced, but your gun dates to either late 1941 or early 1942. If it was originally a .38 Special, it was made for the U.S. military and was not a British Lend Lease revolver, but many of those originally made for LL in .38 S&W were altered by lengthening the chambers to accept .38 Special.

Since the caliber marking is on the frame (it would have been on the barrel), and the sight is not the normal "half moon", the short barrel is an alteration, done after the war by arms dealers when those guns were sold as surplus. There is also no support under the barrel for the ejector rod.

Jim

 

[Oro]

It is not a Victory Model because the serial number does not begin with "V". The Victory model came about because S&W was closing on one million serial number and their numbering machines only went to six digits.

That's one way to interpret it, but certainly not the only one or entirely agreed upon. For example, Jim Supica doesn't even consider the .38 S&W British guns as "Victory models." As a convention, guns share model names based on features and characteristics, not s/n prefixes. Since S&W never marketed and sold these guns commercially, there's no existing period marketing to definitively say what they thought of them as. Whatever we want to call them, we do so adaptively and hopefully logically, but not authoritatively.

The "Victory Model(s)" came about because of altered production methods to simplify typical commercial production methods existing prior to WWII. In the case of the British Victory model (aka, pre-model 11, aka K-38/200, aka "British service model"), it was also a new cartridge chambering, which did not exist in the K-frame prior to that model. It's also worth bearing in mind that a new "model" typically is not named because of simple serial number sequence changes. Some have stated the "V" prefix was added because the guns were already being referred to as "Victory models," not the other way around.

To follow S&W's model naming system, the same British "victory" model based on the caliber was made from 1940 to 1945, running from around s/n 700,000 up to the high v-prefix range.

The British "victory" models started well before s/n "V1" - that was just a s/n continuation of a gun and model already in production. The US "victory" models didn't start, according to some sources, until around V40,000 when the first US models started coming out about March/April '42.

 

[Jim Watson]

A lot of WW II surplus revolvers of all makes, models, sub-models, variants, and peculiarities were sold surplus in the 1950s and 1960s. Many of them were sawn off into "snubnoses" to take advantage of the free publicity in the popular detective novels and tv shows of the era.

Does yours have the S&W front ejector rod latch under the barrel?
If not it has been sawn off for surplus sale and the collector value is nil, no matter which variant it is.

 

[whoppa]

Hi Jim, the ejector rod is under the barrel. I am in the process of taking a couple of pictures.... Stay tuned, 15 minutes....

 

[whoppa]

Here are a few pics of the gun.....

 

[Jim Watson]

I said ejector rod latch which yours lacks. The barrel has been sawn off from an original 4 or 5 inches. Is the left side frame marking where it says ".38 Special"? If so, that is not standard either. Maybe they were replacing a caliber designation lost when the barrel was cut, maybe it was reamed from .38 S&W.

Grips are replacements. Good looking replacements, but not factory.

The finish is very bright for a military contract gun. Either it has been reblued or was a very early government sales gun.

 

[Oro]

While it's hard to say positively, that gun has all the looks of an "Oswald Special" - a British service victory model that was surplused in the '50s and converted by English gunsmiths. Cogswell & Harrison and Parker Brothers were the two that did the majority of them and they bobbed the (usually) 5" barrel down to the end of the ejector rod and converted the gun from .38 S&W to .38 Special, then blued the gun. No guarantees, but that's usually how that configuration came about. A factory gun would have a locking lug in front of the ejector rod; the fact it does not means it was cut down by someone outside of the factory. Given the s/n, ordnance stamp, configuration/alteration, it is probably a .38 S&W that was surplussed post-war.

A test is to stick a .38 Special in the chamber and see if it's a little loose, or better yet insert a .38 S&W and see if it fits. The 38 S&W case is a slightly larger in dia. and won't fit in a gun originally chambered .38 Special.

Those are nice grips as Jim Watson said. If you do intend to sell it, it would be worth checking the chambers and letting the buyer now what the original caliber indeed was. Some people get a bit cautious about the overlarge chambers on the conversion guns.