Smith & Wesson 38 Special Question

[y8052]

Hello All,

I'm trying to determine the year for a revolver passed on from family. I've researched this gun to the best of my knowledge but the serial throws me off from the other markings. Here are some detials if someone has any input.

- Barrel stamped with "38 S&W Special CTG"

- Includes stamp "United States Property"

- Smoth walnut grips

- 5" barrel

- Serial: 977xxx

- Butt bottom is also stamped "W.B." which I understand to be the WWII acceptance mark of Ordnance officer Waldemar Bromberg .

- Beside the "W.B." stamp is the "P" stamp which I understand to be an ordnance bomb and proof mark

By all accounts I would have thought this was a "Victory" model 38 manufactured during WWII, however the serial number does _not_ have a "V" stamp. Without the "V" stamp, I'm a bit at a loss. Since the property mark spells out the whole "United States Property", I was told it was later abreviated to "U. S. Property". Were these military issued revolvers issued with the "W.B" stamp before WWII?

Thanks,
-Van

 

[Jim K]

What is the serial number? The gun is what is sometimes called a "pre-Victory." The story is simply that when S&W got big contracts for their M&P model, serial numbers rapidly approached the million mark, but their numbering machine went to only six digits. So they decided to use a prefix and someone suggested "V for Victory", a common slogan at the time.

So plain old S&W Military & Police Model of 1905, Fourth Change, Serial Number 999999 was followed by serial number V 1, and the gun magically became the Victory Model. When that change took place is not certain, but one source says V1 was made in November 1941, prior to US entry into the war. Since the "pre-Victory" production (wartime contract guns) was only about 300,000 and the Victory Model ran upwards of 811,000, the "pre-Victory" is actually scarcer than the Victory, but the glamor of the name means that Victory Models bring more money. Pre-Victory and Victory Models were made in both .38 S&W for sales to allies and as Lend Lease, and in .38 Special for U.S. use.

The term Victory Model was used in S&W advertising, but the government officially continued to call it (both calibers) the M&P.

Jim

 

[Oro]

In addition to that thorough summary, two other details:

1) you are sure it is not a ".38 S&W" caliber and is in fact a .38 S&W Special?

The reason is that that was the common length with 5" barrels. Checking the s/n on the underside flat of the barrel, it should match the frame/cylinder/grip numbers.

2) Or conversely, did you actually measure the barrel to check it's length.

A 5" US gun in .38 Special would be a little bit unique.

 

[y8052]

Oro, you are correct, I misread the barrel. It is a "38 S&W CTG". Jim, the best place I can read the serial is the bottom of the grip. It appears to be 977xxx, but honestly it's hard to tell if the first digit is a 9, but it appears to be. I don't have very good eyes and it's tough even with a magnifer. The first digit on the cylinder is also tiny and tough to verify if it's a 9. And go figure, the first digit on the underlying flat has a scuff mark on it to make it even tougher. I will have a second set of eyes try to read the serial.

 

[Slamfire]

This is a 38 Special Victory Model.

 

[y8052]

Jim,
Ok, I had my wife take a closer look at the serial number and the number is definately 977xxx. On the bottom of the grip, the number is on one side of the center hole (on the metal frame) starting from the rear of the gun "9" and continuing forward. On the other side of the center hole (still on the bottom of the metal grip) is the "W.B" stamp and the "P" stamp. She also says there is a light stamp of what appears to be a backwards "3". Now, she says there is an "S" stamped on the bottom of one of the walnut wood grips. Again, this "S" is not stamped on the bottom grip metal, but on the bottom of one of the wood grip handles. Was it normal to stamp the wood?

Hope this helps,
-Van

 

[Oro]

The s/n puts that gun in early 1942 - during wartime production for UK and US military models. The "S" stamp indicates it was likely retro-fitted with the hammer-block safety later. The "S" was stamped in different places to indicate this change depending upon who did the change and when the change was done. Most often the stamp was on the knuckle and the conversion done at the factory. Some were reportedly arsenal alterations on the marks aren't as consistent. I have a 98x,xxx model that also has the heel "S" stamp indicating the safety change

 

[Old Fuff]

SlamFire1 - Those are great pictures!

When I have more time I'll try to come back with a more complete answer, but for now...

The revolver is a .38-200 Military & Police service revolver that was originally made for the British, and paid for by them. Then just before Pearl Harbor (December 7, 1941) Congress passed the Lend Lease Act, under which the U.S. Army contracted for revolvers (as well as many other things) with the full intention of sending them overseas. Because they were sold under U.S. Army contracts they were marked "United States Property" and later "U.S. Property." Since they were in effect Army property - paid for by Uncle Sam - they were Army inspected, even though it was presumed the Brits. would get them.

But right after Pearl Harbor it was discovered that we were seriously short of all kinds of military small arms, so some of those "made for England" Smith & Wessons didn't get shipped. If the revolver in question is not stamped with British proof marks and property stamps I suspect it is one that spent the war here.

More later.

 

[y8052]

Thank you all for the details and history lesson. This gun was passed along from my father and I pulled it out of the safe this weekend for further inspection. A box of old 38 special ammo accompanied the gun when I obtained it. Even though the gun is stamped "S&W" (no special), it is obviously one that went through the 38 special conversion. It does chamber a 38 special round and I did shoot 6 rounds (new) off this weekend. I only shot 6 for I didn't like the feel and couldn't hit the side of a barn before moving on to the 357 . Since I thought this was a 38 special all this time and just realized it's a converted "S&W" my research indicated that even though it can shoot the 38 special round, It's not wise to do so. It seems the additional pressure of the 38 special is not good for the normal S&W. Honestly I don't know if the cylinder was bored out or a new 38 special cylinder was put in. Probably best to stick with the S&W ammo even though accuracy will be shot.
Thanks all,

 

[Old Fuff]

The problem isn't so much a question of pressure as it is that the .38 S&W uses a bigger bullet then the .38 Special (.360 vs. .358) and the case diameter is larger, so the chambers are oversized at the back. This condition isn't dangerous so long as standard loadings are concerned, but they can ruin what would otherwise be excellent accuracy.

It is possible to have a true .38 Special cylinder (and for that matter, barrel) installed, but usually unless one really wants to get serious about shooting one it isn't worth the cost, which would run around $100 for parts, plus labor. Years ago, when surplus parts were more available such conversions weren't so expensive, and were more common. They made great shooters, and offered a double-action trigger pull that isn't matched by anything on the market today.

 

[y8052]

Thanks for the tip. I'm not really interested in changing the cylinder and barrel. This is part of the family collection and will simply go back into the safe as a collector item. I have others I can take to the range.

 

[srqalt]

Needing assistance

Hello All,

I'm trying to determine the year for a revolver. Here are some detials if someone has any input.

- Barrel stamped with "38 S&W CTG"

- Includes stamp "United States Property"

- Smooth walnut grips

- 4" barrel

- Serial: 890xxx

- Butt bottom is also stamped "W.B."

- Beside the "W.B." stamp is the "P" stamp

- Cylinder has "England" stamped on it with crowns and "BMP" stamped under the crowns

Can anyone tell me the approximate year that this revolver was produced? I'm considering selling it and would like to have a price range that I can consider as asking price...

Thanks for your time

 

[Old Fuff]

You have an unusual, and therefore potentially more valuable revolver.

As World War Two approached Smith & Wesson was making .38-200 model revolvers for the British and associated allies from within their Commonwealth and Empire. Then beginning in approximately July, 1941 at around serial number 835,000 they started filling contracts from the U.S. military establishment for a similar revolver, but chambered in .38 Special, with a 4” barrel. The British revolvers were chambered in .38 S&W, and for the most part had 5” barrels. As the “revolvers for England” were being purchased through the U.S. Army as part of a Lend Lease program, all of them were marked “United States Property” and “W.B.” for Col. Waldemar Broberg, who after June 1, 1941 was in charge of U.S. inspection at the S&W factory. The "P" is an Army proof mark.

The smooth walnut stocks were introduced in November 1941, and I suspect the revolver you have was made between late 1941 or early 1942.

The barrel length is unsusal for a .38-200 revolver, but the marks stamped on it are clearly British in origin.

It would appear to be a .38-200 pre-Victory Model with a non-standard 4" barrel. Depending on its condition I would place the value as being between $300 to $500. Unless it has been rechambered to .38 Special.

I would not be in a rush to sell it, and I would suggest that you get it “lettered” by S&W. It’s a $50.00 risk, but if the revolver has an unusual history you could more then recover the cost of the letter.

Information concerning historical letters of authentication from Smith & Wesson’s historian, Roy G. Jinks can be obtained from the link listed below.

In exchange for a $50.00 research fee (make any check out to Smith & Wesson, not Mr. Jinks) he will search through the company’s original records until he finds your particular revolver. He will then send you an official letter which usually includes:

A short history of the revolver model’s background.

What the barrel length, caliber/cartridge, finish and stocks were, as well as the exact date it was shipped from the factory – and to what distributor, dealer or individual – as whatever the case may be.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...catalogId=10001&content=25301&sectionId=10504

 

[srqalt]

Thank you so much for the information. I thought that it had to be somewhere in the 1940's for production, but I had no idea that it was that valuable of a piece of history. This now gives me some idea of how I can go about getting the history of the weapon so that when I do have the opportunity to sell it, I know what I'm selling and the buyer knows what they are getting.

Thanks again for your time and information....

 

[Old Fuff]

I failed to mention that barrel length on a revolver is measured from the front face of the cylinder to the end of the muzzle. If you didn't do it that way the 4" barrel could become a far more common 5" one. This would reduce the value, but S&W .38-200 revolvers, if original and unaltered, have been going up regardless.

 

[Jim K]

Just a note that the pictures of the revolver mechanism show very well the hammer block safety that was used in M&P production from 1926 until December 1944, when the new hammer block, still used today, was introduced.

In the older type, as shown, when the trigger was pulled, the ramp on the hand pushed the little tab on the side of the hammer block, pushing it into the sideplate and out of the way of the hammer. When the trigger was released and the hand was down, the safety, which was its own spring, moved out of the sideplate and kept the hammer nose from reaching the primer if the hammer was struck or the gun was dropped on the hammer.

The trouble was that the hammer block was not "positive". If it broke, or dirt or hardened grease kept it from moving out, it would have no effect and the gun could fire if dropped. The new (current) design is operated by the rebound slide and if it is frozen in place, the gun will not fire at all.

Jim