Help identify this rifle and value

[MarshallDodge]

I have someone that asked me if I would be interested in purchasing this rifle but I am not sure what it is or the value. I figured you all could help me with that part

 

[Jerry M]

Japanese Arisaka. Value depending on many things like:
matching numbers,
Year manufactured,
Intact mum,
Condition of the bore.

Good Luck

 

[Jim Watson]

Japanese WWII Arisaka probably Type 99 7.7 mm

Late war version with cut corners like fixed sight.
Looks in good finish condition.

A good type specimen for army surplus collector or opfor reenactor.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Late war Type 99, judging by the fixed rear sight, lack of front sight ears, and bolt handle shape. Cant tell for sure, but does it have no buttplate or a very thin wooden plate? Also, is the safety cap smooth, rough-hewn, or knurled?

Looks like excellent condition, probably unissued and captured right after the end of hostilities.

Metallurgy was suspect on the final guns....I wouldn't shoot it.

With intact mum, I would expect to see $450ish on the tag at a local gunshow.

With scrubbed mum, somewhat less. If NO mum, and memory serves, it was likely a "school rifle" trainer which would explain the condition. I believe many of the trainers were never heat treated and should not be fired.

 

[hawg]

Guns with intact mum bring more. Guns with all matching numbers bring more. The receiver should be marked like this. The writing may be different or it may not have any. The mum must look exactly like this one and not defaced or altered in any way.

 

[JT-AR-MG42]

Wow, that is a heckuva' find!

To the OP.
The rifle you show is a series 40 Jinsen arsenal Type 99 Arisaka. Caliber 7.7 Japanese.
And possibly, ( more clear photos of the front band) a late series termed (by collectors) as the 'Jinsen Special'.
The lack of dust cover grooves in the receiver already point to that rifle being in the latter half of the estimated 94,000 series production.

The Jinsen Arsenal was located in Korea.
'Jinsen' was the WWII Japanese word for Incheon, which is where the Arsenal was located.
Very limited production of either Type 38s or 99s.
The 'Jinsen' Type 99 Arisaka will be up in value over most other 99's and all other standard ones.
You don't state the level of your desire, (if any), to get involved in it for keeping or re-selling and that does affect the buying price.

The values would not be for a Jinsen Special. Those guns sell for more.
I would think 4 to 450 for a Jinsen with a ground mum would be a reasonable buy price,
even to re-sell for 550 or more.
It is a very clean looking gun.
So clean looking that I expect to see the mum gone.
If the mum is still there?

Hope to see more pics and thanks for sharing,
JT

 

[MarshallDodge]

Thanks everyone for your input. I believe I have made an agreement with the owner on a price and will keep everyone up to date.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

If you can post a more detailed photo of the receiver markings on the left side, I'll look up the specific iteration for you in my book.

A clear photo of the buttplate and back of the bolt (safety) would also be helpful.

The fixed sight and cylindrical bolt knob are typical late ('last ditch') features, as are roughly welded safeties and nailed-on wooden buttplates.

Values for Type 99s have been rising steadily, but depend on condition and specific features. If the stock and bore are in good shape and the metal isn't seriously pitted, they currently start somewhere around $500. An intact mum can bring that price up considerably -- that generally means a battlefield trophy as opposed to a surrendered and defaced weapon.

FWIW, my Type 99 with a good bore, scrubbed mum, late bolt, grooved safety, adjustable rear minus aircraft leaders and metal buttplate and generally very good condition was bought from Simpsons last November for a base price of $495 + shipping and taxes.

 

[tark]

Metallurgy was suspect on the final guns....I wouldn't shoot it.

Uhhhh... not really. These substitute standard guns had to pass proof just like their predecessors. "Last ditch" isn't really the proper term, but everybody uses it. The best way to tell if a 99 is safe to shoot or not,, is to look at the upper tang. If it is detachable, you are good to go. If it is one piece with the receiver, it is a cast, un-heat treated receiver. Do not shoot!

These guns were intended to cut costs and speed up production, while still producing a serviceable weapon. Just like the 03A3s. Or the M1A1 Thompsons. The chrome plated bores were among the first thing to go. Sights were simplified, and as many metal parts as could be safely eliminated...were. The monopod, aircraft sighting wings, dust cover and buttplate were eliminated. Often, the protective wings for the front sight are missing as well. They didn't come with a cleaning rod and the forward band was a crudely welded stamping. Exterior surfaces received little or no polishing , so these guns are even rougher than your normal type 99.
Despite their crude appearance they were effective weapons. I had one years back and it shot as well as my earlier example.

 

[someguy2800]

The ones that are unsafe to shoot are the cast receiver ones, which are training rifles that were never meant to be shot. Sadly some of them were taken home by GI's who didn't know the difference and kaboom. The one in the OP's picture is late war production but will be safe to shoot assuming headspace is good, ect... It looks to be in superb condition. I would be proud to own that one.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Here's a few resources to help determine more information about your rifle:

 

[SwampWolf]

Good find! As most know, there aren't many bolt-action rifles that are "stronger" than an Arisaka.

 

[tark]

Good find! As most know, there aren't many bolt-action rifles that are "stronger" than an Arisaka.

Frank DeHaas, in his classic, "Bolt action Rifles" has a section on how he tried to blow up a type 99. He chose a "last ditch" specimen that was so ugly he originally thought it might be a training rifle. He rechambered it to 30-06 and used 180 gr. bullets. He started out with a case full of 3031. This was an overload. Nothing happened, beyond flattened primers. Next was a case full of 4198, with the same result. A case full of 2400 finally did the trick. After all was said and done, there was no setback to the lugs in the receiver, which was intact and still serviceable!! That last load probably generated in excess of 100,000 PSI. Granted, this was not a true scientific study. Only one test subject was tested. He might have tried this with a second rifle and blew it up with the first load, but....

It is easy to see why the type 38 is such a strong action, one has only to compare the bolt to, say, a 98 Mausers. In the pic, the type 38s bolt is on the left with the 98s in the middle. The type 99 is on the right. The locking lugs on the 38 are half again larger than the 98s. And the left lug is not slotted for the ejector. The 99s bolt, conversely, has locking lugs slightly SMALLER than the Mauser's and the left lug IS slotted for the ejector. The legendary strength of these actions has to come down to the steel alloy used in their construction and the heat treating. I find it hard to believe the Japanese knew some magical trick that they learned from space aliens. I wonder what their secret was??

 

[SwampWolf]

The 99s bolt, conversely, has locking lugs slightly SMALLER than the Mauser's and the left lug IS slotted for the ejector. The legendary strength of these actions has to come down to the steel alloy used in their construction and the heat treating. I find it hard to believe the Japanese knew some magical trick that they learned from space aliens. I wonder what their secret was??

Regarding "The Strength of Military Actions" in his book Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders, Volume II, published in 1966, author, barrel maker and custom rifle maker P.O. Ackley, after much testing with overloads on various military actions, concluded: "...The 7.7 Jap action proved to be somewhat of a surprise. In general, they are not as well made as the 6.5 (Arisaka). The design is not as good but the only one so far tested showed great strength and judging by this one individual action, we will have to put it Number Two on the list (in terms of action strength)-the Jap 6.5 being Number One..."

Mr. Ackley went on to explain, "...As an example, the Japanese Arisaka action was not made of as good material as our own Model 1903 action. However it shows much greater ability to take whatever can be put in the cartridge case, probably due to the fact that the distribution of the material is such that the critical parts are strengthened...
"...All of the analysis tests and hardness were as much of a surprise to us in the case of the Arisaka, 6.5 Japanese action as the strength tests. It is apparent that the Japs went to a great deal of trouble to properly heat treat their actions..."

 

[MarshallDodge]

I assume that the years of sword making provided some experience?

 

[Poper]

I assume that the centuries of sword making provided some experience?

A logical conclusion. (Fixed it for you.)

 

[Scout21]

I've heard that the Japanese were historically an iron-poor nation, so they likely wanted to ensure that whatever they were manufacturing was of utmost quality as there wasn't enough material to use it unwisely.

 

[CapnMac]

The Trainers have skewed perception on many of these. They were intended for wooden bullets driven by primers--at a maximum.
And, back in the late 40s it was not helped by rando Bubbas forcing 30-06 in to these and yanking the bang switch.
The Cadet rifles are an interesting bag to try and collect.

 

[tark]

If the chamber is anywhere near spec on the 99, it is literally impossible to chamber an 06 round. One look at the pic will show why. I think this rumor got started during the Korean war, when the Army re-chambered thousands of type 99s in 30-06 and issued them to ROK troops. Even if someone DID manage to chamber and fire an 06 round in the 99, it wouldn't hurt the rifle, which can easily handle any pressures the 06 can generate. And you're pushing a .308" diameter bullet down a .311" bore. There will be gas blowby in the barrel which lowers pressures. I have fired many 308/ 7.62 Nato rounds in my type 99. The accuracy isn't so good, and the cases have almost no neck left...but there is nothing dangerous about it. Just make sure they feed out of the magazine so the extractor can hold them against the breech face.

 

[hawg]

If the chamber is anywhere near spec on the 99, it is literally impossible to chamber an 06 round. One look at the pic will show this. I think this rumor got started during the Korean war, when the Army re-chambered thousands of type 99s in 30-06 and issued them to ROK troops. Even if someone DID manage to chamber and fire an 06 round in the 99, it wouldn't hurt the rifle, which can easily handle any pressures the 06 can generate. And you're pushing a .308" diameter bullet down a .311" bore. There will be gas blowby in the barrel which lowers pressures. I have fired many 308/ 7.62 Nato rounds in my type 99. The accuracy isn't so good, and the cases have almost no neck left...but there is nothing dangerous about it. Just make sure they feed out of the magazine so the extractor can hold them against the breech face.

I had one when I was a teenager. I could find 7.7 anywhere but I also had a 91 Argentine that took 7.65. I shot a good many 7.65 out of my Arisaka. Just a thin ring was all that was left of the neck. They were quite accurate tho. I'm not sure what would have happened if one of my cases had been short.

 

[Scout21]

If the chamber is anywhere near spec on the 99, it is literally impossible to chamber an 06 round.

I can confirm this, I wasn't able to chamber a 30-06 cartridge when I purchased a sporterized 7.7 Arisaka. Was hopeful that it had been rechambered, but it probably would have shot poorly with the oversized bore, anyway.

 

[tark]

I had one when I was a teenager. I could find 7.7 anywhere but I also had a 91 Argentine that took 7.65. I shot a good many 7.65 out of my Arisaka. Just a thin ring was all that was left of the neck. They were quite accurate tho. I'm not sure what would have happened if one of my cases had been short.

Likewise here. The 7.65 Argie rounds will shoot quite accurately because the bullet is the proper .311" diameter. 300 savage will also work, although you will end up with a straight walled case. As long as the rounds are fed out of the magazine and held by the extractor it is safe. On my gun, a 308 will not quite chamber. The Japanese round has a slight taper, the 308 does not. What happens is the forward edge of the shoulder on the 308 touches the slightly tapered chamber walls and it binds. With the bolt handle almost closed. My solution is simple. I remove the decapper on my full length 7.7 dies and size the loaded 308 round, squeezing the shoulder of the case just a tiny bit. Barely enough to be visible. Now the rounds chamber easily.

I can confirm this, I wasn't able to chamber a 30-06 cartridge when I purchased a sporterized 7.7 Arisaka. Was hopeful that it had been rechambered, but it probably would have shot poorly with the oversized bore, anyway.

The re-chambered guns were clearly marked on the left side of the receiver. You could try the .308/ 7.62 mm option. Some 99s will chamber the 308 easily with no trouble. Others wont even come close. The Japanese chambers were not as uniform as ours, especially later in the war. Tooling was often used beyond its service life in the attempt to save production costs. Chamber reamers were certainly on this list.