Help identifying an old machine gun

[gamestalker]

Am FFL buddy of mine showed me and let me shoot this interesting piece, but he wasn't even certain of it's origin or exact model. It shoots the Tokarev 7.62x25 cartridge, it is only fully automatic, is all metal, has a heat shield, is short with a folding stock, it looks similar to an MP40, and has no externally visible markings or numbers. It appears to resemble some of the pre world war Russian types, might be? The leather sling on it looks to be probably original and very, very old. Any thoughts as to what this might be based on the chambering 7.62x25?

I shot it, and it's a pretty cool little machine pistol / rifle, though it's pretty short to be consider a rifle.

Never mind I think I identified it, it's identical to a PPS-43

GS

 

[Sam1911]

Hmmm.... checking Wiki on the 7.6xx25 gets

PPD-40 & PPSh-41 Probably not either of those as they're wooden stocked.

Could definitely be the PPS-43

If not Russian, the Czechs built the CZ model 24 or 26.

Does it look like either of those?

 

[SDC]

The two overwhelming possibilities are the PPS-42 and PPS-43 (Pistolet-Pulyemot Sudaeva 42 & 43); these are both entirely stamped metal, but the PPS-43 is a slightly-simplified version of the PPS-42, which uses the nose of the bolt guide-rod as the ejector, while the PPS-42 has a separate ejector welded into the receiver. These were first designed and built by Sudaev during the Siege of Leningrad.

 

[Ron James]

Odd that, doesn't know what they are papered as?

 

[Hurryin' Hoosier]

Odd that, doesn't know what they are papered as?

Hmmmmm. NSA - are you copying?

 

[Jim K]

An FFL alone is not enough to make ownership of a machinegun legal. I hope he has the appropriate Special Occupational Tax stamp and/or the transfer papers for the gun.

Jim

 

[gamestalker]

So far as his legal FFL status, I imagine so, he has quite a few of these type firearms, couple old BAR's, AK's, AR's, and what not, and he sells them also. And he's a retired LEO also. In short, he isn't the type to break the law.

GS

 

[Field Tester]

Is it possible it was a M56 machine gun?

Can you give us a few more details? How big/long was it, where was the magazine well placed, what style magazines did it take, etc?

 

[DPris]

To legally possess it, even as an FFL, there must be paperwork federally, and that requires a description of the gun, including serial & make.
If he doesn't have papers...
Denis

 

[gamestalker]

I called him a little bit ago to ask him if he figured out exactly what it was, and what he paid for it. He said he hasn't made an offer on it yet, and that it's a PPS-43. So I had apparently misunderstood that he had purchased it already, which now makes more sense regarding the points ya all made about paper work and all. I don't know anything about the legal mumbo jumbo regarding FFL's and machine guns, grenade launcher's, or what ever, so please don't fire those type questions at me. That's way above my pay grade, and I'm not buying / selling it, and that wasn't the purpose of my OP.

Anyway, all I was initially curious about was what it might be, who manufactured it, and from what time frame or war? I was just wanting to know if I had just had the privilege to shoot some very old historical pre WW MG is all, which would be kind of neat to know. I've only had the privilege to shoot a couple fully auto firearms ever, and this one was really kind of cool, in that it was so simplistic looking, very basic in appearance.

GS

 

[ljnowell]

I was under the impression you couldn't loan a machine gun. The gun has to stay in the possession of the owner.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^

I'm not sure the OP was soliciting legal advice on behalf of a third party, but rather simply to ID something he had shot. The FFL sounds like he's a SOT holder, and likely an 07 FFL. Not our concern, we have plenty of nannies elsewhere without needing to put on the nanny-hat ourselves.

The PPS-43 is an interesting old subgun, not terribly common in original condition. Several other countries made clones of it, and many parts sets have been imported as well. Both semi-auto shooters and full auto deal samples have been constructed from these parts sets.


Willie

.

 

[Jim K]

Willie, it is always a delicate issue, but my concern is not to be a "nanny" but to try to keep someone out of trouble.

As you know, a LE agency can possess machineguns for official use; an individual LEO has no special status and any NFA items he/she owns must be properly registered.

Jim

 

[DPris]

Same here- sometimes, as with Gamestalker, people simply don't know the law regarding Class III guns.

The thread started out on a shaky note indicating the possessor of the gun in question might be doing so illegally; some of us were just trying to advise GS in case he got himself personally involved with an illegal situation.
Denis

 

[gamestalker]

And thanks to all of you who are concerned for me, legally speaking.

So they were cloned by other manufacture's as well? Was that within the close time frame of the original production, so as to explain the appearance and clues, that this is a rather old firearm?

GS

 

[Jim K]

A good article on the PPS is at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPS_submachine_gun

Russia used SMG's in WWII primarily as a quick and inexpensive way to provide weapons for a mass army. After the war, they began to convert over to the SKS and later the AK-47, which latter provided greater range and power while still being compact. The PPS was used by East Bloc countries and by China and Finland. IIRC there has also been a closed bolt semi-auto .22 caliber lookalike made in the U.S. in recent years.

The PPS is not common in the U.S. because few were captured from Germans or sold on the surplus market, unlike STEN's and TSMG's which were sold by the thousands as DEWATs.

Jim

 

[barnbwt]

The semi PPS43's are among the cheapest and most common open-bolt/closed-bolt-semi-auto parts kit conversions being done commercially right now. They sell 'em as pistols with the stock welded closed so they don't have to fiddle with 922r (which makes these conversions wildly unprofitable for what they might sell for). They're like 400$ or so last I looked. Word of warning; if the conversion is anything like most other open-bolt-to-closed-bolt jobs, the trigger sucks and it is much harder to cock the bolt before firing, and you may experience light primer strikes or striker follow (or a faulty striker that puts the "fun" in malfunction that you'd better get fixed right away)

TCB