Help! What caliber?

[FlashCap]

I need help.

When I was 16 years old (42 years ago) I bought and built a Kentucky Pistol Kit. I recently found it at my parents house and thought it would be fun to take my son out target shooting with it. It's in good condition. Very light rust on the barrel, Trigger mech. good. Anyway. cleaned it up, replaced the nipple, and bought supplies for it. Now for the problem that I need help with...I could have swore it was a >50 cal. and ordered rounds for it. Too big!! I've been told by the folks at shop that deals with these type of guns and that they were only made in .45 and .50 cal.??? I measured the barrel inner diameter with calipers and it measures .4375 Looking online, I see .44 cal. rounds that are .433. Would this be the right size. When I fired it when I was a kid, I never used patches (just made sure not to point the gun down; ). Now, I'm looking at patches, and they are .125 thick. Does that really matter? I assume they compress.

 

[Patocazador]

I f the measurements you listed are accurate, you probably need a .429 ball with .015 - .018 patches.
Yes, the thickness of the patch matters. They compress but not down to zero. I have never encountered a .125 thick patch.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/127/1?PageSize=100
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/163/1/OX-18-40-D

 

[FlashCap]

Patocazador,

Thanks for your response. I was looking on Midway site and I don't see a round that size. This is the best site I could find for stating the different calibers of rounds and their dimensions.http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1165132904/hornady-muzzleloading-bullets-round-ball

Duh!!! disregard. I had thought I looked at the sites listed before I opened my mouth and removed all doubt. I know it's been 40 something years, but I just don't remember it being such a strange round. Like I said...I was told that these guns were only made in .45 and .50 caliber. Thanks again.

 

[entropy]

.45 caliber CVA Kentucky Pistol kit, yes. I built mine when I was 13, in 1976. I used .440 balls with .015 patches, and the occasional shot load of ¾ oz. of 7½'s with felt wads and cardboard top.

I also suggest getting a caliper that reads in thousandths or ten-thousandsths, not fractional. You get much more precise results. If .4375 is what you're getting, .433 will work with thin wads. If you were using .440 balls unpatched before, you wouldn't have had to worry about pointing it downward.

 

[FlashCap]

My second thought was .45 cal. when .50 cal. proved to big. But, as I said, my measurement of the inside diameter is .4375. I've measured several times, Whether I interpret the reading as 7/16's or 6/16's plus 8/128's, It comes out the same. .440 won't fit. Yet I'm told that these guns were only made in.45 and .50 cal. It is causing quite a conundrum. Also, I'ts getting expensive to order these balls and find they're either to big or too small. I believe I will go with Patocazadors' recomendation. That comes closest to my measurements.

 

[Acorn Mush]

FlashCap, is there any reference to caliber stamped on the barrel? As I recall, back then a lot of pistols, and rifles too, were actually considered to be .44 caliber and took a .433 ball with a thin patch. You might try that combo with say, an .008" linen patch.

 

[FlashCap]

Acorn Mush,

That is an excellent idea. One that I thought of initially. I noticed no markings on the exposed barrel. I was reluctant to remove the tang screw and remove the barrel for fear that it might not tighten down again. (If it ain't broke, don't fix it kinda thing) Yet, I believe I will do do that. As stated earlier, when I shot, the ball fit snug enough to work without a patch, though not optimal or correct way to fire. So I'm sure I was using a .433 ball.

 

[swathdiver]

That looks like a Spanish made CVA Kentucky pistol. I reckon it doesn't mention the caliber on the barrel so it's probably a .45 caliber. A .45 caliber single shot muzzleloading pistol has balls sized .440, .445 and .433 for them. Yours will probably like the .433 with a thin patch but you also might consider getting a mold to keep costs down and try .395s with a thicker patch.

Track of the Wolf carries the Lee molds and lots of nicely cast pure lead round balls in just about every imaginable size too.

 

[kBob]

Would someone please mail this guy a .440 ball and or a .433 ball and or .429 ball so he can just check and be done with it?

-kBob

 

[AJumbo]

You can drill a hole through a .440 ball and drive a screw into the hole, then push the ball about a 1/2" into the muzzle. Be careful to not let the screw contact the rifling. Pull the ball out and measure it. Grease the bore first, if you like; it may make the ball easier to insert and remove. This is called "slugging" the bore.

Don't get all over-focused on bore size vs. ball size vs. patch thickness; .010 under bore size is a good ball size. Adjust your patch thickness to suit the pistol. This isn't a 100-yard bench rifle, it's a 10-foot belly gun. You can probably get decent accuracy from it, but it's limited by its very design. Make it belch smoke and roll beer cans!

 

[FlashCap]

LOL! KBob...That's the best idea I've heard yet! It's costing me a fortune to order these balls, not to mention the wait time. I just wish Bass Pro carried a wider selection. I've ordered some .429's with a .018 lubed patch and that should work. If I'm not happy with that...All I have left is a .433, but that would be tight with a patch.

Now all I need is a small smelting pot and mold for all the wrong size balls I got

Sheesh! All I want to do is take my son plinking!

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

Instead of obsessing on details just use the .429's and some cotton .22 rimfire cleaning patches. They work great for patch and ball material. I smear a little Bore Butter on mine and cleaning is a breeze. As AJumbo stated, you are not building clocks, merely punching close range targets.

 

[BCRider]

I'd check the size again taking pains to measure the "bore" on the peaks of the rifling with a little tension on the wheel of the caliper to pull the jaws outward. The largest reading you get while the jaws are still in the barrel and pressing against the lands of the rifling will be the most accurate provided you are using a light but firm pressure on the traveler thumb wheel. While you are in there try to read the larger groove diameter as well.

If there are an odd number of ridges and grooves then your reading won't be accurate anyway. An odd number will result in you either reading between a land and a groove or if you place the jaws to read off two lands then you're not getting the proper diameter reading. And that would sort of be the case which would produce a small'ish .4375 measurement

I don't think I've ever seen a .44caliber muzzle loader. So my feeling is that the odds are excellent that you got a wrong reading for any of the above reasons and that you actually have a .45 caliber gun. But if there was a .44 caliber at some point in the past I'll happlily stand corrected.

If the odds win out and it's a .45 then you'll find that a .440 round ball with a patch works like a charm. An old 100% cotton or linen bed sheet can work just fine. Or what I've been using is a flannel like cleaning patch intended for .357 size hand gun bores. The flannel is quite compressible and results in around 15 lbs of pressure on the ram rod being needed to seat the ball even after some fouling is in place. This has proven to be just about right and the accuracy took a big jump over a tighter fitting fabric I'd used before that.

To lube the patch you can use any number of things. I tend to use a 1:3 mixture of Ballistol and water to make "Moose Milk". But when I've forgotten my Moose Milk at home I resorted to wetting the patch on my tongue with spit and using that which worked just as well. Sort of fuzzy feeling though.....

Or you can buy pre-greased pillow ticking patches if you're flush with money.

 

[BCRider]

OK, I just looked at the pictures more closely and I see that you're using a set of plastic calipers. There's simply no way in hell that you can trust those to that level of accuracy. So for starters go buy a set of at least the cheap imported metal calipers. And then as mentioned above you need to make your measurement while the jaws are held in place when doing internal measurements. And that assumes that you don't have an odd number of rifling grooves. IF you do then you simply cannot take an internal measurement with them.

Also have you popped the barrel off the stock? Odds are good that there's a caliber marking on the barrel in SOME location. Maybe it's on the underside? I would consider it odd for a kit to not be marked with the company and caliber.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

That is a Spanish made pistol. CVA sold that model and called it the Colonial Pistol. Yes, almost all of them were 45 caliber. Yours is an early model, the later ones used a drum and nipple instead of a bolster breech.

The very early, 1970's, models had rather shallow rifling and were a somewhat tight 45. a .440 round ball and thin patch will work. By thin, I mean something like muslin from a fabric store. It runs about .006 thickness.

Frankly a well worn cotton bed sheet would be about as thin.

Is the barrel crowned with a bevel around the edge of the muzzle? Some of those older barrels, being made of mild steel would peen over easily if bumped and create an edge around the muzzle making it difficult to load. A pipe reamer (cone shaped multi bladed cutter) hand turned can make a nice crown....

 

[FlashCap]

Took the barrel off. The only markings were "SPAIN" and a serial #. Appears to have 4 rifling grooves...And yes they are very shallow. Have to wait till I get to Home Depot to get better calipers. Although I did measure a .395 ball. And if it's size is as advertised then the calipers are off .0044. Which would put the barrel at .44

 

[Acorn Mush]

FlashCap, after looking at the picture of your barrel's muzzle, I hope you will take Zimmerstutzen's advice about crowning. It will make the pistol much easier to load.

If you don't have a pipe reamer, I have read about guys using 320-grit wet-or-dry sandpaper and thumb pressure to get a nice crown. Just lay a piece about 7/8" wide over the muzzle and, using thumb pressure only, rotate the barrel, oscillating back and forth as you rotate. Stop when you get a nicely rounded leade into the bore.

Hope you have a lot of fun getting the ol' girl to shoot.

 

[FlashCap]

Well...I got the .429 balls in with the .018 lubed ticking patches. Nice snug fit. Can almost set ball with thumb pressure. Could probably go up to .433 with a thinner patch but right now it's good. Will post a pic. when I can get out to shoot. Thanks to all for the help and advice.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Flashcap I am glad to hear it. Tell us how it shoots!