help with 357 magnum

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atygrit

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I'm making some practice rounds getting my bullet seating and crimp established before actually reloading. I'm using a Lee Classic Cast Turret and the Lee 4 die set and 158 grain lead SWC.

What do you guys think of these pictures?

I have tried to put the least amount of flair on the case before seating the bullet.

I have also seated the bullets to OAL spec and I'm trying to figure out if I have too much crimp on these.

Also, since these are revolver rounds, what is the purpose of the Lee Factory Crimp Die?

Should I just seat with the seater die and crimp with the FCD or not use the FCD at all?
 

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357

Flare(bell) looks great. IMHO Too much crimp and if you are going to use the FCD back off the crimp completely on the seating die. If you are going to eliminate the FCD stage you need to work on your crimp in the seating die. It looks like you have fully crimped but you were not yet at the bottom of the seating stage and the extra depth needed to bottom out to the correct OAL is shaving lead from the bullet.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
 
I'm a relative newby at .357 haveing acquired a GP 4" about 18 months back and loaded cast slug 'practice' loads of 158gr cast over Red Dot for about 1Kfps with good results. can't recollect charge weight.
IMO you need a bit more flare on the cases. the crimp looks good maybe a bit too much.
good looking rounds though. I don't use the Lee FCD on my 'plinking' loads. no jams yet. it's much more important to double-check your powder charges and also primer seating and bullet seating IMO.
 
If you are not running the press in "progressive" mode, you can operate the ram so that you feel the crimp.

By working with this feel, you can avoid over-crimping rounds - especially if you are using mixed lots of brass that may differ a goodly amount in length.
 
If you're loading full power loads, that crimp looks just about perfect to me.

Large charges of slow burning powder and heavy crimps go very well together.
 
I'm confused what the FCD is for on this caliber.

What is the most popular method? Just seat with no crimp and use the FCD to add the crimp or not use the FCD at all and seat and crimp in one step.

I'm looking for the most consistency. I'm using a 4 hole turret, so I have the space for the FCD if that is the best way to go about this.
 
I load on a dillon, so the FCD is a separate stage from seating.

But even back in the dark ages, when I loaded everything on a single stage press, I still crimped in a separate opoeration.
 
atygrit

Ya catchin the bullet somewhere , looks as if ya crimper may be rollin in a little early or the case needs a bit more flare .I also see the crimper hitting the bullet a bit ,I like to see a tiny gap or flush , that way the case is resting on the shoulder of the crimp groove.

Be aware that the FCD does a fine job but if mis adjusted it`ll also resize the bullet to a smaller size.Especially softer swaged bullets .

I prefer the roll crimp in a seperate operation from seating & doing it in seperate steps keeps from bulging the case with a hard roll crimp.
 
I seat and crimp at the same time with a regular seating die. I do have a Lee FCD and I reluctantly use it when I have extra thick brass and .358 cast bullets, and the cartridges are bulged just enough that they don't chamber well. I'm pretty sure it swages the bullet a down little, but it doesn't seem to hurt accuracy or increase leading.
 
Same opinion here as Walkalong.

FCDs will swage an oversize bullet down which on some guns will cause/increase leading and decrease accuracy.
 
your Lee dies should put a roll crimp on by themselves. flare case mouth a bit more as has been stated then come down on the seating die about 1/4 turn it seems. this should put a good firm roll crimp on the rounds.
 
Ammo looks ok to me. I flare the mouth just enough to keep from shaving lead. I "two step" my seating/crimping (seat bullet, back out stem, lower die to roll crimp.). I tried the Lee FCD for my .44s and didn't like the post sizing aspect (swaged my boolits down to a bit smaller than my gun likes. Put it away somewhere...
 
Take an empty resized -- and not expanded -- case and run it up in your seating die. Adjust the die body down until it is snug against the case mouth. Lock it down. That's your starting position for a crimp. You may have to tighten it just a little more for a firmer crimp.
 
Thanks for all of the suggestions. I rewatched some youtube videos of Ammosmith and realized I was setting the crimp die up wrong. So I decided to start over. I added some more flair to the case and I don't seem to be getting lead/lube shavings.

I also did what zxcvbob suggested and got the following results. Let me know if you think I have put enough crimp on these.

Sorry these pictures aren't as good as the others, I just had my camera phone with me this time.
 

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A lot better. Still could use a hair more flare. Another thing that will help is trimming cases for more uniform crimps.
 
Trimming, or sorting for length.

Maybe I'm just lucky and my .357 is all the same length; I never trim them. But trimming them all to the same length will make it easier. You should only have to trim them once (as opposed to rifle brass, even .30 Carbine)
 
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Atygrit,

Welcome to reloading and thanks for asking our advice.

Lots of good advice, but some of it may appear contradictory. Here's mine and my reasoning behind it.

First a few facts that are not in dispute.

The Seating die has a crimping shoulder in it, so it CAN, but does not necessarily HAVE TO crimp and seat at the same time.

Prove it for yourself. Take the die apart, clean the inside and shine a flashlight into it and look in the bottom end of the die body. You will see the crimping shoulder.

Flaring the case mouth and crimping bends and stretches the brass. This is known in metallurgy as "cold working" and makes most metals brittle. We have all done this with a wire coat hangar. Bend it back and forth a dozen times and it eventually snaps. Flare and crimp a case mouth enough times and it will eventually crack (unless you soften the metal by annealing it). Use excessive flaring/belling and strong crimps and you speed up the process, shortening your brass' life.

Lee FCD (factory crimp dies) have a carbide sizing ring at their bottom. This re-sizes the case as it is withdrawn from the FCD and forces it to be cylindrical as the LAST act of reloading. GP100Man mentioned this in post 9, third paragraph) The reason for it is to ensure the shape of the cartridge case is restored to SAAMI dimensions if the case-mouth belling die or the crimping die caused the case to be re-shaped, slightly crumpled or over-expanded by a too-large bullet (which happened to me with some oversized cast lead bullets once).

Some reloaders don't like this sizing ring and actually knock it out of their FCD.

The reason for the existence of the FCD is that, when you seat and crimp with the same die, you are actually crimping WHILE THE BULLET IS STILL BEING PUSHED DEEPER INTO THE CASE. If you are applying a gentle crimp, this does not present a problem. If you are applying a strong crimp, this can actually cut into the bullet and shave lead. (see post #2 from kimbernut)

If you seat the bullet to the proper depth without crimping there is no lead shaving. Then, assuming the case mouth lines up with the crimping groove, if you, in a separate operation, apply crimp to the case mouth, it will settle into the crimping groove without shaving any lead.

You could actually do this without the FCD. Take the seat/crimp die and use it to seat the bullet without crimp. Then remove the bullet seating stem and use the seat/crimp die to apply a crimp WITHOUT MOVING THE BULLET DEEPER INTO THE CASE. But this is inconvenient for most folks and does not apply the final FCD sizing ring to ensure proper shape of the case as it is withdrawn from the FCD.

The two main purposes of the crimp applied to cases that headspace on the rim is 1) to prevent the bullet from being pulled out of the case by inertia as the gun recoils from its siblings being fired. Light guns and heavy loads are particularly prone to this, and the bullet does not have to completely exit the case to cause trouble. All it has to do is protrude from the front of the cylinder, thus jamming the gun. (I am sure this is why Marlin 45 Carbine, in post #3 said, "I don't use the Lee FCD on my 'plinking' loads." and Cheygriz mentioned "full power loads" in post #5) Happened to a fellow in Soldotna while he was being attacked by a bear. Fortunately, the first two shots disabled the bear, but he had to call in another firearm to actually administer the kill shot. The second reason is to ensure that (with certain powders that require a goodly amount of pressure to burn properly) the bullet stays put long enough to build proper pressure inside the case. By this time there is enough flame that the powder will reliably continue to burn properly. Erratic burning rates of slow powders (particularly problematic with light loads) has been known to blow up guns. (Do a search on the word "Ka-Boom" or the phrase "Do not reduce loads..." H-110 is notorious for this. While H-110 is an excellent choice for high-end magnum performance, light loads are dangerous. (see post #5 from cheygriz)


Now for my opinions and advice.

You have a 4-station press. If you are utilizing the auto-indexing feature, you don't save any strokes of the handle by skipping the FCD. Use the FCD.

Adjusting the dies separately for seating and flaring/belling is simpler than adjusting a single die for both. Not a big deal, but it does save some complication. Use the FCD.

If you are loading heavy loads, you will want a strong crimp and probably will shave lead if you combine the seat/crimp operations. Use the FCD.

If you are using the press like a single-stage and want to minimize the time you spend loading, skip the FCD. You will reduce the number of operations from 4 to 3.


Always wear safety glasses, especially when working with primers, and don't pinch your fingers in your press. Verify for yourself everything you learn from casual sources. Believe only half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for everything you find on the internet.

Happy New Year,

Lost Sheep

P.S.

By the way, "flair" means "a natural ability to do something (e.g. He has a flair for storytelling.)
"Flare" (aside from its primary definition, to burn unsteadily) means : to open or spread outward <the pants flare at the bottom>
both definitions copied from Merriam-Webster.com/dictionary, which also has included in the definition of "bell", this example, "d : the flared end of a wind instrument"

Thus, you can bell a case mouth and you can flare a case mouth, but you can never flair a case mouth. However, a particularly talented reloader can demonstrate a flair for flaring case mouths.
 
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Point of order

The reason for the existence of the FCD is that, when you seat and crimp with the same die, you are actually crimping WHILE THE BULLET IS STILL BEING PUSHED DEEPER INTO THE CASE. If you are applying a gentle crimp, this does not present a problem. If you are applying a strong crimp, this can actually cut into the bullet and shave lead. (see post #2 from kimbernut)
If the bullet has a crimp groove and that's where you crimp it, the case mouth is not touching the bullet as it is being turned inward. No "shaving" issue at all, even with a strong crimp.
 
If the bullet has a crimp groove and that's where you crimp it, the case mouth is not touching the bullet as it is being turned inward. No "shaving" issue at all, even with a strong crimp.
zxcvbob is right.

A bullet with a good crimp groove like the one you are using can be seated and crimped in one operation with no lead shaving as this one was. No need to crimp in an extra step unless you just want to. Trimming cases will make them all come out just as nice as the one in the pic. If the cases are much more than A .005 difference in length will start showing up in the crimp. A .010 difference will give visibly sloppy crimps along with some good ones.

Yes, we want to limit the flare for the reason Lost Sheep gave, but it really isn't that big of a problem and it's more of a problem if we flare too little.

Overcrimping lessons case life as well, which is one more reason to trim cases and adjust your crimp properly, as well as not using more crimp than needed. A low velocity light bullet .38 Spl load will not need near the crimp as a hot loaded heavy bullet in .357 Mag.

Even with enough flare and a heavy crimp, case life will be very good, so don't sweat it too much and focus on adjusting the dies to make a good round.

As a non FCD fan, I would skip it unless you are having chambering problems. Then I would look for other solutions first. I seriously doubt you will have any chambering problems in .357 unless you buckle a case from over crimping, and of course that is an easy fix. (Trimming cases and better crimp adjustment)

A separate die to crimp with is cheap, but you don't really need it, as you can do it with the seater.
 
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