Help with AR

[RP88]

have you tried any commercial ammo through it?

You could always by some quality commercial ammo and see what happens there. It could be your handloads being too long or from using bad brass...

 

[ZeBool]

Okay, everyone seems to be 100 percent sure it is a tight chamber. I am not 100 percent sure that they are wrong. You have my two cents, for what it's worth. Good luck!

 

[TonyAngel]

Try some factory ammunition. No offense, but odds are that it's an ammunition issue. Lots of guys say that you need to break an AR in sopping wet with lube. I'm sorry, but I've never experienced that. Yes, brand new actions can be a little tight, but not to the point where you can extract a live chambered round.

When you say that you "built" an AR, did you actually build it or did you order the upper from WOA and slap the upper to the lower? If you ordered the complete upper from WOA, I am pretty confident that you do not have a problem with the upper. Match chambers are tight and pretty unforgiving.

Are you sure that you trimmed your brass to the proper length before reloading them? What brass did you use? Was it once fired Lake City? If so, it may have been fired in a machine gun and may need to be sized with a small base die. Even if it was just once fired out of a standard 5.56mm chamber, it may need to be sized down. I know that brass fired out of my 5.56 AR won't chamber in my .223 bolt gun unless I use a small base die.

At this point, I wouldn't assume an equipment malfunction. I'd look to the ammo.

 

[Lovesbeer99]

No offense taken. All of my ammo is hand loaded, see previous post on this string. All of the cases I've used so far have been once fired by my in my bushmaster and full length resized with a Lee Sizer die. I do have some cases I bought on line but I haven't used those yet. I'll look into the small base die for these.

I don't disagree it's the ammo but I'd like to understand why. My Bushmaster had a stanard 5.56 chamber in an H-Bar barrel. My new barrel is a WOA NM stainless that I mounted in an upper my self. I didn't buy the upper I assembled it from parts. The bolt matches the barrel, I paid extra for that.

 

[suzukisam]

have you scrubbed the chamber? also when you drop the bcg on a full mag do they chamber? when they chamber are the all stiff to get out of the chamber, or just some? on both my current ar's with WOA barrels I had a few that would drag on the chamber. but for the most part they would all chamber I just couldn't extract them. like I said before they were so tight two guys couldn't pull the bullet out of the chamber with the charging handle. they would fire right out. like I said after 100 or so rounds this was no longer happening. now after several hundred in one and over 1000 in the other they never skip a beat. I really think if you just stick with it and keep cleaning well you'll find it'll go away. if not you really need to look at your cases. also are you polishing your brass bright and shiny? all these things will make a difference in the first few hundred rounds. I even used a little hornady one shot on my cases when I was breaking in my 243.

don't disagree it's the ammo but I'd like to understand why.

well this is something you should have understood before you bought a match chamber. not picking on you but a "match chamber" is very tight. a 556 chamber is very loose. that is why I got mine in a wylde chamber

 

[suzukisam]

Lots of guys say that you need to break an AR in sopping wet with lube. I'm sorry, but I've never experienced that.

you didn't experience what? No one says they'll break down if you don't. when mating metallic surfaces it always gives a smother break in if they surfaces are very well lubed.. you don't "have to". but if you do you are guaranteed a smooth break in. I have seen a few guns that didn't have them done this way and it was a much rougher break in. it's just a fact that surfaces are wearing during break in, why wouldn't you want a lot of lube? it allows material to flow out of the friction areas.

 

[TonyAngel]

Suzukisam, you're making it sound like there is a procedure or period that the rifle needs to go through to "break it in." I'll agree that a new rifle should be a LITTLE tight, but parts shouldn't need to wear in. If you're using quality milspec parts, all that should NEED to be done is a little mating of the surfaces and taking down of the sharp edges. All that is needed to do this is proper lubrication and a mag, maybe two, of ammo.

 

[suzukisam]

tony- when you break in a new rifle as you know a little wearing occurs... with a an adequate amount of oil the materials are allowed less contact. which cause the the surfaces to wear more smoothly. also, any of those "sharp edges" or bits of metal, anodizing, or anything else are still between the parts as your mating the surfaces. I prefer to have a considerable amount of a thick oil such as break free at all my contact surfaces for the first couple mags. I do this with all my guns auto loader shotguns, ar's, and pistols. after the first shooting session I clean it all up and oil regularly after that. again I'm not saying your gun will quit working if you don't. but you will get a very smooth well mated surface if you do. I have seen a few receivers that had some pretty big gouges in them where material got between the bcg and the receiver when the rifle was being broke in. will these gouges hurt the function? probably not. I just like to err on the side of caution.

Why would you be against this practice? I understand if you don't want to do this for yourself, but why would you tell someone it is the wrong thing to do? you make it sound like those of us who do this are silly or something.

as to the ops problem the chamber has reaming marks and those are most likely hanging up on the cases. untill they polish out a little I doubt his problem will go away..

 

[TonyAngel]

suzukisam, I am saying what I'm saying because over lubing isn't necessary and to a limited extent, can be dangerous. When you have the action sopping wet and pull the trigger, a good amount of that lube is just going to follow the gasses out. It's going to come out fast and hot. A face full of hot lube isn't fun. At that point, I'd argue that the rifle is expelling that which it did not need, so the rifle was overlubed.

I don't want to get into a debate over this. Lube with enough lube, too much lube, whatever. It's just an opinion and we all have one.

To the OP, I highly doubt that you are having a chamber issue. If it was a chamber issue, I would suspect that you'd be having more issues with ejection than you would with feeding. Getting the bolt with the barrel is a good thing. At least you know that the headspace was checked to insure that all is in spec.

Based on my experience with both Bushmaster and WOA products, I believe that the chamber on your Bushmaster could be considered sloppy as compared to that of the WOA barrel. Believe me, the WOA barrel's chamber is likely a lot tighter than that of the Bushmaster.

When you fire a piece of brass (once or more) in the larger chamber, the brass is going to swell and conform to the shape of the larger chamber. When you resize the fired brass, the sizing die only sizes just so far down the brass. If the brass is swelled beyond the point that the resizing die reaches down to, the bottom part of the brass may be too large to easily chamber in the tighter chamber.

Didn't you say that you are loading Sierra 52gr BTHPs? If that is the case, I highly doubt that the bullets are your problem.

Ya know, do you have any of the empty cases that you last fired from that rifle? Why don't you see if those will chamber and then extract.

We have to narrow this down. Of course, you could just run a box or two of some factory stuff through the rifle just to make sure that all is well with the rifle.

 

[Lovesbeer99]

I've been working OT since Saturday and haven't even cleaned the gun yet. I run the brass through the tumbler though. I'll find time this week to take it apart, clean it and see whats up with the brass and post a response.

 

[suzukisam]

tony- I think we're on the same page.. I'm not like dipping my guns in a barrel of crude oil or anything. I just like a little more than a little less..I more originally posted this to the op because many people tend to run them dry and I don't think DRY is good at all.. and if he was having a stuck bolt or shell or whatever a dry bolt would not be something good to add to the issues.. thats all.. I kinda got the impression you didn't like much oil.. I don't have it running out or anything

OP- if they are not chambering in, than I'm with tony, it's the brass.. but if the majority of problems are getting them out, it's your chamber.

have you tried just removing your upper and hand fitting the shells into your chamber? do they go in? do they come out? does a factory load drop in? these are all tests you need to run

 

[mc223]

WO chambers do tend to be a bit snug but not so snug as to necessitate the use of the forward assist. There is no "break in" of a chamber.

Get a good die set and your problem will disappear.

If you are set on Wolf or other cheap ammo your issues will likely persist..

The processes of reloading accurate ammo IMO cannot be cheaped out.

You went the extra step and bought the White Oak upper. Looks like time to step up with a new die set.



o

 

[Lakedaemonian]

So basically your bolt didnt seat back into battery after the initial shot? If so your gas rings may be corroded or out of spec. Replace gas rings and polish the chamber. If that doesnt work, let me know.

 

[suzukisam]

Lee junk is cheap because they want you to have to buy more of their junk when it either fails or just wasnt made right in the first place, if you don't learn the first time.
99% of Lee dies are probably barely acceptable for the average chamber. Just not a WO chamber.

Can you provide some fact to support this? I personally have had 5 sets of rcbs and hornady dies that were out of spec, and not yet a set of lee.. though I am having a reloading issue now.. but I don't think it's the dies, I think it's the brass.

WO chambers do tend to be a bit snug but not so snug as to necessitate the use of the forward assist. There is no "break in" of a chamber.

maybe there is no "break in" per say, but mine needed 100 rounds or so to loosen up and polish.. just the facts ma'am, just the facts!

 

[TonyAngel]

So basically your bolt didnt seat back into battery after the initial shot? If so your gas rings may be corroded or out of spec. Replace gas rings and polish the chamber.

Guys, the OP isn't dealing with an AR that he built out of parts from some fly by night company. We're talking about an upper built using a WOA barrel and (milspec) bolt. Besides, gas rings being bad will cause the rifle to short stroke, but I doubt that bad rings will cause a new round to fail to chamber completely. I also wouldn't go polishing on anything.

I'm not saying that WOA is infallible, but if your chamber needs polishing to fix this problem, it is defective and needs to go back to WOA.

OP, I don't know if this is your first foret into a precision build using a barrel with a match chamber, but with barrels with tight chambers cut with accuracy in mind, it really isn't unusual to have to tailor the ammunition to the barrel.

All it takes is the brass being 2/1000ths of an inch out of spec to cause the problem you're having.

I don't know what that knock against Lee dies is about either. I know plenty guys shooting MOA (or better) out to 600 yards (and beyond) that load their ammo using Lee dies. The only caveat that I can think of when using Lee dies is to ignore the way they tell you to set up the FL sizing die, because doing so will cause your brass to be overworked. You should always set up your dies using a chamber gauge.

 

[Lovesbeer99]

Again thanks for all the responses, and I do have some comments

My bolt was purchased with the barrel from White Oak as a matched set. I paid extra to get the bolt so it's not mil spec.

I've never had a problem with any of my 5 sets of Lee dies. They may not be designed for match chambers but they are not low quality.

I haven't had a moment yet to clean my gun and try a dummy round but I'm betting it's the ammo and the chamber as a combination. In other words with my bushmaster barrel with the milspec chamber I never had a problem with any ammo no matter what, but I know the chamber is now tighter than my original BM barrel. I'll get around to it by this weekend.

In anticipation of the brass problem I ordered an RCBS Small Base sizing die today and should have it by early next week. I'm betting it will make a difference but I'll see. Not all the rounds I fired stuck but some did and they have all been through my BM with their last firing so I'm not sure what it is but with more use and the small base die I'm hoping it will cure the problem.

Lee Dies are not low quality. They work great and just as advertised and the customer service is also great. My feelings are not hurt becuse the comments aren't true.

 

[suzukisam]

beer-

you should do a test.. if you know exactly which brass fed well and was fired in your WOA, then you should reload it in a separate batch. when you go to the range if the rounds that were previously fired in the WOA give you no trouble, then your small base die should solve your problem. if they still stick a little then your probably going to have to just keep shooting it. the chamber is still a little tight... I know people think I'm crazy but all 5-6 of my bro and I's WOA barrels needed about 100 rounds to feed without issue, I don't know why or what caused it but I could not get them to extract...come to think of it one was a YHM barrel.. I just assumed it was the chamber needing a little brass cycling to polish it out. Even darrel @ D9firearms told me the would need a little bit before they ran perfectly smooth..

oh and people don't like lee dies for the same reason they don't like cheap AR's because they feel like they need to justify what they spent on the expensive crap.. I have top of the line AR's and I have some of the cheapest available.. they all run like tops.. I never sneer at people with a cheap delton.. I always tell them theirs is just as good as mine! mine will just shoot a little tighter group and looks a little cooler(IMO).... I've spent 60.00 on top notch dies and gave them away because my 1911 wouldn't eat anything made with them unless they were run through a lee FC die... so I just decided I'd never buy pistol dies unless they were lee delux.. and for "cheap, crappy" dies why is it they are the easiest to use?

 

[mc223]

I know people think I'm crazy

Why?

I just assumed it was the chamber needing a little brass cycling to polish it out.

More learnin and less typin would be helpful.



White Oak test fires every upper with properly sized and reloaded ammo. I do not believe they would ship a product that was in any way having an issue or for some reason needed 100 rds to make it function.

Those darned dies are the problem and the OP has ordered a new set that will take care of the issue.




o

 

[HOLY DIVER]

i ran into something similar with my WOA barrel. my problem turning out 2 be the bullets i was useing (speer 70gr spitzer) probly could have seated them a touch deeper and they would have been fine but i ran them through my bcm middy no issues by the way i use lee dies no issues

 

[bonez]

Had the exact same problem-

and as stated by others, it was an issue I created, failure to fully size the brass. The last mm or so at the base would stick in the chamber and be a bear to remove, would not go forward, could not be removed with the charging handle. Turned in the sizing die a bit and no more issues (was already a small base die, the only thing I use for semi auto rifles). The press actually "cammed over" before I got it where it needed to be. Have loaded literally thousands since and not a single failure to chamber.

Someone mentioned overworking the brass as a concern. I use my AR for both sport and self defense. Replacing the brass a couple of loadings earlier than some others might is a VERY small price to pay for reliability.

 

[suzukisam]

Quote:
I just assumed it was the chamber needing a little brass cycling to polish it out.
More learnin and less bs typin would be helpful.

um excuse me? you need to turn it down a notch! I have had a lot of <edit> experience with these barrels <edit>

 

[mc223]

lovesbeer99, IMO Lee dies are junk. I use a few different brands and have never had any issues. I have used Lee and did have a similar issue, different caliber, different type of rifle. Lee went away and the problem did too.
All my WO uppers have fed flawlessly since day one. I believe that once you get your die issue taken care of you will be able to realize the full potential of a true, better than "match grade" upper.

 

[suzukisam]

Used worn out yard sale dies suck,hey.

they were given to me by a friend, so I tried them.. and they didn't work no skin off my teeth..

Use caution reloadin, as handguns can blow up. Maybe bad brass.

yep.. either I made a mistake, or I couldn't see the brass failure.. either way my fault.. so

Removing cases from ones eyes is expensive.

yes it is.. if I were ashamed of my mistakes I would not have displayed them on a public forum. I have made mistakes..again so what?

please stop hijacking this thread

 

[9mmepiphany]

Folks arguing between yourselves doesn't help the OP. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, just present your experience and findings rather than challenging each other.

Attack the argument or the facts, not the presenter...that is what keeps it civil.

If we can't stay civil, we can just end this discussion

 

[Owen]

all these things will make a difference in the first few hundred rounds. I even used a little hornady one shot on my cases when I was breaking in my 243.

Don't ever lube ammunition. It puts much much more stress on the bolt, because the case can't grip the chamber walls at peak pressure.

OP, what happens if you try to chamber sized brass, not loaded. IOW. Size a piece of brass, and single load it. Does it chamber? Is it hard to extract?