General overall response
Even though I hate Government involvement in anything firearms related, I really wish sometimes the USA had a national proof house for just this type argument.
L.D.
This is getting tiring. As a dealer of these decorations, You try to defend these things that are basically crap by making making your own assumptions about these things and trusting the people that are SELLING THEM to you without any background investigation. I believe in the adage
"TRUST BUT VERIFY". Bob has a better perspective as he has actually been there to India to see these things made. He is, I believe, tryng to find a good cheap base to start from to build a suitable safe rifle which he might achieve since Britain has a proof house to test his Baker before putting it on the range where he might endanger other people.
I know proofing is not foolproof but it is a time proven method of testing barrels prior to their use on a firearm. No I can't be sure another individual might think Smokeless powder that is black in color is "Black Powder" so it is "okay" to shoot in a black powder only firearm. No I can't be sure a neighbors gun is not over charged, impoperly cleaned or loaded or any of the many other things that can go wrong. There are no guarantees but I can take a few minimal steps to protect myself and those around me from unnecessary risk.
Proofing a barrel is one of these.
My experience with these Indian made firearms has not been favorable. Most of the ones I have seen were malfunctioning to some degree, and 4 were blown up due to problems in the breech area. The internals and frizens were too soft for more than very light use. Hardening and re-fitting were often required to make the locks function. While the indian pieces might make a blank gun, These pieces I have seen were
NOT SUITABLE for even moderate live fire. This is why the N-SSA and I refuse to approve them for our live fire events. I even refuse to work on them any more.
I don't consider myself a gunsmith but I have been shooting for 45+ years and working on guns for 40+ years. This includes doing some Browning, Remington and S&W warranty work, making parts from scratch and refinishing stocks. I have built 2 Muskets from original parts with new wood and barrels. I have also improved many Italian guns to make them shoot better and be more durable. (As a rule I am not a fan of the Italian guns, but that is another topic.) This plus 40 years of shooting and having won a National and state titles make me feel competent to say something is not safe.
These are some things that we agreed on:
1. If an Indian made gun is shipped to the USA, it is either shipped as a "decoration" with the vent hole undriled that must be drilled after it arrives in the USA or;
2. It is shipped unassembled as parts for later assembly once it gets into the USA.
3. We are told This is done to get around Indian Gun laws.
While you accept this, I don't. It appears the gun laws they are avoiding is not India's but the USA. They are avoiding US laws that require imported firearms to be proofed. They are avoiding the law that requires imported firearms to be numbered and the manufacturer AND Importer be identified. They are avoiding the US Consumer protection laws that allow us to sue someone that puts a faulty product on the market after a failure. The USA relies on this to make sure American made barrels are safe, not proof houses. (Major Producers or barrels in the US test the heck out of their barrels and vet their mfg. process before putting barrels on the market.)
It might help to know that India does make firearms that are sold on the import market. Why don't they comply with these laws?
I have checked with the importers of these pieces and they will not identify or provide any information that might calm my fears. They call this "Proprietary information" on their web sites. Check My previous posts. I have gone over this before.
Quote:
The Indian made pieces in the USA are shipped here as decorations.
The Indian manufacterer agent said this: For a while, You could have watched a video on the N-SSA web site where their sales agent said this to the camera.
I have seen this assertion before as well. The Indian muskets that I own were bought as parts, shipped to the country where they were finished,
From the owners of these pieces I have spoken to, they were shipped with the barrels in one box and the rest in another part so they could be called "gun Parts" again dodging the law.
some barrels made in America are from hydrolic tubing.
Please ID the American maker of any GUN with hydraulic tubing for a barrel. I don't know of any.
Why would this suddenly change your viewpoint?
If theyfollow the law, I am more likely to trust them
Based on the actual factual records of barrel failures, you are far more at risk from an American shooter improperly loading an inline, than from a properly loaded musket barrel made in India.
FACT OR YOUR ASSERTION. Show me the numbers or study.
Cosmoline
Go to almost any Re-enactment. You will find used muskets and flintlocks at very reasonable prices. Buy them straight from the individual. If you wait until they are in the hands of a sutler, they will be already adding their profit back into the price. In short pay the individual what a sutler will pay him for a used gun.
Bob:
I think I have seen what you are trying to do with the barrel. Try wrapping the barrel in leather with the twist you wish to achieve then apply your bluing finish, be it black or rust.
Another possibility is that you may have seen a Damascus Steel Barrel that had been browned? The Damascu Method gives the barrel a Twist finish sometimes if it is not polished out.
If they were not made to shoot why go to the trouble of making each bit as near to original as possible they could cut so many corners and still make the thing look right if it was never meant to be fired.
As I understand it, one of the principal markets for these things is Hollywood's movie industry. The days are long gone of using trap doors as muskets in historical films. Hollywood magic makes the noise, flash and smoke. The N-SSA National skirmish has been recorded several times to record soundtracks for several CW movies in the last several years. With real live fire, the movies are much better.
As for your initial premise, are these guns a good cheap source of parts for building a suitable BP Rifle/Musket, My verdict was no. When I finally put tape measures to them, the measurements were too far off. Also, by the time you put the tools, work and time into them, you can buy an Italian gun, harden the parts, bed the barrel and get a good firing gun for the same money without the unknowns and risk. Unless it is for something not available elsewhere, I would stay away from them.
One advantage you have is you went there and eyeballed them. They may put a little extra into your project becausse they don't know if you might actually show back up on their doorstep again. You have the advantage of a Proof House to test your barrel so it might work out for you. Good luck with your project
Olmontanaboy:
Keep Defending the USA. But I don't think Bob has any ill will towards me or the USA. Just a basic Disagreement between gun lovers.
For all:
The main thing is be safe. Guns are dangerous if not handled properly. Since the distributors and importers are so secretive and using every loop hole they can to get these pieces into the USA around our laws, I tend to err on the side of caution and preach against these things.
