High round count carbine classes and "lower tier" AR15s

[waterhouse]

Before I start, I have nothing against owning so called "lower tier" AR15s. My safe includes a $600 (used price) factory built gun as well as one I pieced together in the garage for $425. There are a couple other sub $750 ARs in the safe as well. They run fine for plinking at the range, but I've never actually tried to run them really hard to see if they can take it. I've always told people that my cheap guns run just fine, but since I choose more expensive guns when I intend on running them hard I don't really know how well my cheap ones would do.

I've been to a few high round count carbine classes over the years. Some of the classes are somewhat expensive, and most of the people that show up tend to have relatively high dollar gear, and most of the guns just plain work.

I recently attended a class that was more aimed at people who were new to the AR15. A huge variety and cost range of guns turned out. Over two days we fired between 700 and 1,000 rounds. Some people fired a lot less than other, because their guns kept having issues.

Two of us were shooting Noveskes, there were two Colts, a Larue, and an LMT, which all ran flawlessly. No stoppages of any kind. Some people were shooting high quality ammo, other shooting cheap steel stuff, but they all ran.

There were several guns from other companies which cost less money that were having problems. I wasn't paying close attention to what caused each stoppage, as I was working on shooting drills, but it was pretty clear that the more cost efficient guns were not handling the high round count, fast strings of fire, etc. Failure rates were very high, sometimes multiple stoppages per magazine. Instructors tried switching out magazines with no luck. A few students eventually abandoned the gun they brought and finished the class with borrowed Colts that the instructor keeps around for just such purpose.

Also of note, a few fairly expensive piston based ARs were also having lots of issues.

I often read that just about any AR is good enough for 99% of users. As mentioned, I own a few very inexpensive ARs, but after having seen what I have seen I certainly would not bring them to a carbine class and risk missing out on instruction while my gun was down.

I'm now curious. Without getting into brand naming or bashing, has anyone taken their "lower tier" rifle to a high round count class and had mechanical success with it?

 

[1KPerDay]

Interesting. Thanks for the report. I assume the lower-tier rifles were being lubed/maintained similarly to the premium ones?

 

[waterhouse]

They were. In fact the first portion of the class was a classroom session on how to field strip, care for, and lube your gun. This included the instructor going around with a bottle of Mobil 1 and making sure the guns were wet enough, as well as checking things like gas rings and extractors to make sure all was in order. Guns were relubed during water breaks/magazine reloading sessions.

 

[Snowdog]

I don't know if Palmetto State Armory (PSA) is considered low tier, but I do plan to enroll in a class with it, so I might be able to answer that question in a couple months.

 

[C-grunt]

My duty gun is a lower tier gun. During our 40 hour training course to be certified I shot about 4k rounds through the gun that week. It fed and fired fine but I did have several parts in the lower receiver break. Mine wasn't the only one with that problem. Since those parts and a couple since then have been replaced its been a good rifle.

 

[1KPerDay]

Which parts?

 

[helotaxi]

I also wonder how well broken in some of those guns were or if the owners/shooters even knew enough about them prior to the class to know that some guns have some teething pains.

Had they figured out whether their rifle would function with whatever ammo they brought for the class prior to showing up?

The exact nature of the stoppages would be interesting to know. Magazines and lube were ruled out, but what about ammo? I say this because stoppages are usually ammo/magazine related while malfunctions are problems with the rifle itself. Without knowing what types of problems were being encountered, it's really impossible to say if it was an issue with the weapon. I would say that it would be a relatively safe assumption that someone coming to a budget oriented class with a budget rifle probably didn't bring premium ammo with them. A high quality rifle is probably going to be more tolerant of inconsistent/weak ammo as is one that is well broken in.

 

[C-grunt]

Which parts?

I don't know LPK parts that well. It it was two parts of the safety and a spring in the trigger group. Also the gas rings on the bolt broke within 3k rounds, as in they had large chunks missing.

Further the customer support from Bushmaster has been pretty much non existant. So much so that the dept is considering getting rid of the whole batch of Bushy rifles (100) and buying more Colts.

 

[SwissArmyDad]

I'm definitely interested in getting some training, so I'm interested in hearing folks' responses.

My rig is a JD machine lower, PSA lower parts kit (LPK), and PSA 16" middy 5.56 upper

I'd also like to know what parts failed in the LPK mentioned above. EDIT: nevermind, we must have been typing @ the same time, C-grunt..haha...thanks for the details.

Cheers, SwArDad

 

[Captains1911]

It is true that the slightly more expensive guns, and sometimes less expensive but built to the proper specs, perform better when run hard. These are facts that are proven time and again in scenarios just like the one you describe. The ability for many hard-headed individuals to accept that fact is another topic.

 

[taliv]

my guess would be extraction issues and under/over-gassed issues. that's mostly what i've seen.


waterhouse, i took two of pat roger's 3 day classes with a franken gun that i made out of a very high quality barrel and bolt, but RRA receivers and a DPMS carrier and an adjustable gas block, shooting reloads that cost me 7cents/pop. no malfunctions other than the ones we intentionally set up to practice malf drills. i retired the gun a few years ago with 15k+ rnds on it (it's been a while i don't remember exactly). At the time, i could have bought a colt for less than i paid for all the parts that went into that gun.

however, i know survivor bias when i see it and i wouldn't recommend anyone do what i did. i have built several guns since and use much higher quality parts

btw: i really think the barrel and bolt are the most important parts not to skimp on. although i have seen jacked up receivers, that's pretty rare

 

[Bovice]

Mobil 1 seems a little thick for AR lube. I'd use conventional gun oil over that, because it's very light.

I don't have any high tier ARs but mine have tolerated any rate of fire I've thrown at them. The key is in the lubrication. If it runs dry, you have trouble.

 

[W.E.G.]

wonder how well broken in some of those guns were or if the owners/shooters even knew enough about them prior to the class...whether their rifle would function with whatever ammo...

...it would be a relatively safe assumption that someone coming to a budget oriented class with a budget rifle probably didn't bring premium ammo.

In view of the fact that no info was gathered as to the particulars of the stoppages, and we are only left to speculate over the internet-legend "tier" concept, my first guess goes to incompetent user with poor choices made as to preparation.

Often a rifle that gives problems is actually only suffering one or two small problems that a competent user would diagnose and correct in such a manner as to bring the rifle into full operable status before showing up at an expensive event and looking foolish.

Less-expensive rifles can be just as effective as expensive rifles in these rifle-on-a-pistol-range events if the user prepares properly.

Quality ammo is always a prerequisite for reliability.
Stoner-design shooters have been re-learning this lesson ad nauseum since Vietnam.

 

[C-grunt]

A good reliable rifle just needs quality parts that are put together correctly. My duty rifle was put together well but some of the parts were low quality and failed. On the other hand you could buy all of the best parts but if they are assembled wrong the rifle will fail.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Aaand this is why I place the opinions of these type of instructors above anecdotal personal experience. These instructors literally see thousands of guns and millions of rounds go downrange over the years. They can see what tends to fail and how often. They tend to deal with this stuff on a regular basis and a high round count class is the best baptism by fire for a carbine anyone is considering for defensive use.

 

[Hollerpoint]

I have a Del-Ton mid length AR with a Bushmaster LPK that ran a course where I put 1150 rounds through it without a single malfunction. It has also gone 500 rounds with consecutive mag dumps with an SSAR stock on it. But....I know how to lube the gun.

Without accurate descriptions of the malfunctions I'm not going to put much thought into what may have happened.

 

[waterhouse]

I have a Del-Ton mid length AR with a Bushmaster LPK that ran a course where I put 1150 rounds through it without a single malfunction.

That is good to hear, since my budget build frankengun used a black friday deal Del-ton midlength upper. So far I've been pleased with it, but I haven't shot it a ton.

 

[wally]

Exactly how many rounds are in a "high round count carbine" class before the opportunity to clean or inspect for wear/damage?

Other than a wipe down, a few drop of oil where it matters, and perhaps a boresnake before going back into the safe, I rarely take my guns apart to clean unless there was a malfunction last time out.

 

[waterhouse]

It varies by class. The ones I've been to don't require a huge number of mags to attend the class, so after 150-300 rounds they break to reload mags and get some water, at which point you can put more oil on the gun/check it out a bit.

 

[wally]

The only rifle I own that I wouldn't expect do that is my Kel-Tec RFB 196 rounds is the most its ever gone without a failure. None of my "cheap" ARs have any problem doing this, even using Wolf ammo.

"If you've never broken a gun, you just ain't been shooting enough!" I've broken cheap guns and expensive guns and all in all it seems pretty random once its gone the first few hundred rounds without an "infant mortality" failure.

 

[benzy2]

These threads always amaze me. Why would a 1000 round carbine class be the standard for a quality defense firearm? Whats the last civilian you have heard of that went through even 100 rounds in a defense sitution?

I think failures of lower tier rifles.are two fold. Typically people buying inexpensive gear are new. This leads to plenty of user error as well as the problem of the user not knowing what is worn/needs replaced. Id like to see one of these instructors take a budget rfile, look it over and replace/repair any small issues they see such as staking or extractor springs, and then let them run it from there. I personally think a lot of failures would be minimized and in a quick time that rifle would run well.

Lets all be realistic. Many of the more expensive di guns are higher quality and.put together better. In the.same breath, the ability to spend a day or three sending hundreds to thousands of rounds down range isnt the conditions or round count a civilian would experience in a defense situation. A stoppafe at the 500 round count in a course is far beyond important in any defensive situation ive every heard about.

 

[Sam1911]

Why would a 1000 round carbine class be the standard for a quality defense firearm? Whats the last civilian you have heard of that went through even 100 rounds in a defense sitution?

I read the OP twice. Didn't see that argument presented.

I guess you could make some broad statements about it being nice to know that the rifle would run more than a mag (or in the case of some, at LEAST a mag) without a jam, so there might be utility in taking a class or two with your "defensive" carbine before you lean it in the closet where it stands ready to protect you.

Maybe it's a chicken-and-the-egg thing. Nope, no average Joe citizen should expect to have to fire 1,000 rds in self-defense. But Joe Average probably should get some training, and it would be wonderful if his rifle worked at least throughout the class, so he got the most benefit for his training dollar. So, if we do want to talk about "defensive" carbines for "average" people, they don't have to be all that great to defend your life, but they've got to be halfway decent to survive through your preparations for defending your life.

Kind of like that old MADD commercial that used to air in the '80s: "If the risk of losing your life doesn't keep you from drinking and driving, consider the risk of losing your LICENSE!!!" Gotta have priorities!

 

[Cesiumsponge]

A weapon built with in-spec parts and properly assembled should function fine. The variable is...how consistent is the manufacturer in hitting these quality control marks, assuming their parts are to specification? It's not necessarily "the more expensive gun is better" but rather who can crank out these things with consistency. At some point, cutting the price on these things results in cuts somewhere in the manufacturig, assembly, and QC chain.

A Colt 6290, when not priced ridiculously, is only about 10-15% more than most offerings for a basic AR. The company has a solid track record of these in the law enforcement and military field. Most other manufacturers, including the premium brands don't have widespread LE use or any military use. Therefore we are left with data gathered from anecdotal experiences or the harshest civilian environment, which would be competiion or carbine training courses.

I think this conversation can he split further into two categories of failures, instead of lumping them together. Failure of funtion due to gumming up from dirt or thermal issues which can be alleviated to intervals between cleanings, and outright failure of parts, which is cumulative.

 

[wingman]

What I find interesting that many shooters buy the "best rifle" then purchase cheap steel ammo along with low cost magazines. Honestly I see so much misinformation about the AR I simply tend to pass over the post.

 

[kwelz]

I have attended no less than 20 classes. About 2/3 of which were primarily carbine based.

I have seen Just about ever well known brand of company represented in these classes. And I have seen a lot of failures ranging from FTE/FTF all the way to broken FCG parts. The common denominator is all of these failures except one*? They were all what most would consider lower quality ARs.

At the class in January I we got to speak to Larry about a number of the issues he sees in classes and the story was the same. Low quality ARs tend to have the problems. This isn't to say DD, BCM, Colt, etc don't have problems as well. However they are far fewer even though these guns represent the higher number of guns seen in class.

I have also seen a few people mention it being the shooter. My training group tends to be about evenly split between Military, Police and civilian. Weapon care is not the issue. Weapon quality is.

Finally no. You are not going to shoot thousands or even hundreds of rounds in a SD situation. But will you shoot more than one? Chances are that you will. And I want a gun that has a better chance of not failing then one that has a greater chance. Otherwise I would use an NEF single shot for self defense.


*That one exception I mentioned is my personal 10.5" DD gun. I had some problems with it in the LAV class I took in December. This was eventually traced back to a gas block that I had installed incorrectly. So in this case it was the user.