High round count carbine classes and "lower tier" AR15s

[kwelz]

What I find interesting that many shooters buy the "best rifle" then purchase cheap steel ammo along with low cost magazines. Honestly I see so much misinformation about the AR I simply tend to pass over the post.

This is actually a very good point. Good quality magazines are plentiful. PMags, Troy Battlemags and Lancer AWM, as well as the tried and true USGI (from a good company). Yet people insist on buying the cheapest junk mags they can dig up from a dusty corner of their local bait and tackle shop.

Then they want to save ~$30/1000rounds on Wolf ammo instead of Hornady or a good M193 round.

 

[benzy2]

Sam, it was in response to the post about taking an instructors word as what matters in a defense rifle. And dont get me wrong, if im spending money for a dedicated defense rifle im going spend extra for more peace of mind that things were done right. It also makes sense that you would buy a tool that lasts through training.

Cesium, where can you find a new $700-$800 Colt 6290? There are quite a a few popular AR models in the $600-$700 range. If they are down in that price range now i know my next purchase.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Benzy2, please excuse my ignorance. I didn't know there were manufacturers offering ARs at that price point. Most of the stuff I see on gun store racks (S&W, RRA, DPMS, Bushmaster) are in the $800-900 price range. I've seen Colts go for $950-1000 from places that aren't price gouging ($1200+)

 

[kwelz]

You can get a Spikes or PSA in that price range. Spikes used to be bad but claims to have improved. PSA is new and has had a number of problems out of the door. At this point it is a recommend with caution situation to me. If you get one make sure you check them over very carefully. Other than that you only things you will find in that price range is low end DPMS or S&W rifles.

 

[benzy2]

Cesium, of late there have been a few decent options to pop up into the sub $700 range. There are certainly plenty of rifles in the $800-$1000 range that don't live up to near the quality of others in that range. RRA, DPMS, and Bushmaster all have many models that fit a niche I don't understand. Their M4 style rifles all make little sense as they don't hold the quality but come in real close on price to the basic M4 style Colt.

That said, S&W has the Sport, which uses a LMT (I believe) bolt and a Melonite (or whatever their term) barrel. PSA has rifles that list well based on the chart and are in that bottom price range. Spikes has an option or two that are very affordable. I've seen non-Sport model S&W run on sale in the $700 range. Then you have the Windham Weaponry rifles which run right around $700. Del-ton has conformed to the chart a bit more since their early days and are in that price point. Really, for a M4 style rifle built with reliability in mind, there are plenty of players in the market, some at a budget price point and others more expensive. I wouldn't expect the quality of most of these rifles to match even a base 6920, but the ones I've seen haven't been so far off to make them a waste of money at their price points.

 

[Hacker15E]

Then they want to save ~$30/1000rounds on Wolf ammo instead of Hornady or a good M193 round.

More like $120+ per case of 1,000 (low $200s for a case of Tula or WPA, mid $300s for most brass). That's significant savings over time, especially for folks who shoot multi-thousands per month...and I have yet to see the downside of shooting all that steel (and saving all that money). That's 1/3 more shooting for the same amount of money.

I always get a kick when folks make the statement, "spend all that money on a rifle and then run cheap ammo through it!" They assume that there's some punchline that we're all supposed to understand as to why that is bad.

Rifles are not like internal combustion engines where running "cheap gas" can have detrimental effects to the engine mechanically (and even that stirs up significant discussion amongst engineers and mechanics alike). There has yet to be any coherent evidence that steel cased ammo is harmful to the rifles it is shot from in any way whatsoever.

At the ranges most "carbine classes" are taking shots at, the very mediocre accuracy (precision, actually) of the cheap steel ammo is a non-issue.

If a particular rifle doesn't feed or extract reliably with steel, then I see the argument for not using it (although IMHO any rifle that doesn't reliably shoot steel for at least a couple hundred rounds without cleaning or running brass through it isn't worth owning). Outside of that, I just don't get it.

 

[helotaxi]

The cheap ammo isn't going to damage the rifle but it will hurt it insomuch as the ammo is so inconsistent and/or underpowered that the gas system doesn't work as it should. As such the ammo is the problem with the rifle's function.

 

[mac66]

Just deleted and rewrote the whole thing for simplicity' sake.

The question isn't whether you need a tier 1 gun to shoot at the high speed, low drag training classes. The question is whether you really need to go to one of these classes and shoot 1K rounds in a weekend.

If you want to race cars every weekend, buy a race car. However, you don't need a race car for everyday driving. Same thing goes for guns.

 

[Girodin]

Without accurate descriptions of the malfunctions I'm not going to put much thought into what may have happened.

I wouldn't put much stock in this one report. However, it is basically the same thing I hear from anyone that frequents many carbine course.

The cheap ammo isn't going to damage the rifle but it will hurt it insomuch as the ammo is so inconsistent and/or underpowered that the gas system doesn't work as it should. As such the ammo is the problem with the rifle's function.

I've shot cases of steel case through my noveske without a hiccup. Some of the guys I shoot with that have lower tier guns that experience stoppages. Whats ironic to me is that the price difference between steel case and brass stuff makes up for the price difference in the guns pretty quickly if one shoots much.

 

[waterhouse]

I was shooting wolf in a Noveske. Guy with the LMT was shooting Wolf as well. Most others were shooting brass cased ammo. One of the guys having trouble actually traded me a couple boxes of brass cased American Eagle for my Wolf to make sure the issue wasn't his ammo.

 

[happygeek]

Every carbine class I've been to had nothing but Colts present, and brass cased ammo. The only problems I've experienced were mag related, with the aluminum STANAG ones. I've yet to have an issue with P-Mags or hear anyone else complain about them.

The last one I went to was a week long and involved about 2,000 rounds over that week. I did have to hit my forward assist once, probably because I didn't use enough oil.

 

[tundraotto]

if it works for 500 rounds without any problems before you take a class that specs 500 rounds, its likely it will work for the 500 rounds there too....all things being equal - etc... cleaning, rounds used

 

[helotaxi]

There is good steel ammo and there is crap. The good stuff is dirty. The crap is dirty, inconsistent and underpowered. Type one will usually run any rifle fine. Type will cause lots of rifles to choke.

The difference between the cost of reloads and steel case will pay for the rifle as well. Figure $300 for pull-down powder, $750 for pull-down bullets, $250 for primers and $250 for 2k new LC cases and you get 5 reloads out of them. That's $1550 for 10k rounds of good ammo.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

There is an extreme spread between full-power 5.56mm NATO loads and the weakest .223 loads. People can tune it with different buffer weights because the mechanics of an AR allow it to work best in a specific range. You can tune that range with different weights or tinkering with other things but there is no magic setting that will allow it to excel on everything equally well.

All you have to work with is a gas port in the barrel and a stupid weight that bobs around.

 

[browningguy]

I don't take any carbine classes, but on the last 3 gun shoot we had 4 shooters run up to 400 rounds through my RRA with no problems.

Actually the 99% of shooters may be a low estimate. I personally doubt that even 1% of AR owners ever take a carbine class where they are running over 100-200 rounds in a day.

 

[ritepath]

My BIL took his M&P (900 bucks couple of years back) to carbine class for his qualification to carry a duty carbine. In the class they run a little less than 1200 rounds in 3 days, his run without any problems.

 

[tarosean]

A weapon built with in-spec parts and properly assembled should function fine. The variable is...how consistent is the manufacturer in hitting these quality control marks, assuming their parts are to specification? It's not necessarily "the more expensive gun is better" but rather who can crank out these things with consistency. At some point, cutting the price on these things results in cuts somewhere in the manufacturig, assembly, and QC chain.

This... I am constantly amazed by people who think budget and AR are synonymous

 

[David G.]

...I've yet to have an issue with P-Mags or hear anyone else complain about them...

PMAGs become brittle in cold weather... I was shooting my AR-15 in 15 degree weather, and my brand spankin' new PMAG developed a crack in the right feed lip. This let the odd numbered rounds pop out of the magazine, into the upper receiver. BCG comes back, old case ejects, one round pops up sloppily into the upper, BCG comes forward and pushes another new round right into the chamber where the other one is now sitting. This happened multiple times before I realized what was up. I've seen video of troops running over different magazines with their HMMWVs, with only the PMAG surviving, but apparently my real world, careful, tender usage is harder than extreme abuse tests...

It's easier to bend back metal to it's original shape, imo, than it is to fix debilitating hairline fractures in plastic.

 

[Girodin]

Figure $300 for pull-down powder, $750 for pull-down bullets, $250 for primers and $250 for 2k new LC cases and you get 5 reloads out of them. That's $1550 for 10k rounds of good ammo.

What do we figure for my time to load those 10K? If I factor in what I bill hourly for my work those reloads become a lot more expensive. Also this argument assumes one is set up to hand load. I hand load for precision ammo. For high round applications where I do not need better accuracy than com shots out to 300 yards its not worth it. I would also question the the quality of loads that will be achieved with the components you mention. For me reloading is only worth the time when I can either get fairly substantial savings and/or a significant performance increase.

but apparently my real world, careful, tender usage is harder than extreme abuse tests...

We are getting that conclusion from a sample of one?

 

[Captains1911]

Actually the 99% of shooters may be a low estimate. I personally doubt that even 1% of AR owners ever take a carbine class where they are running over 100-200 rounds in a day.

What does that have anything to do with the topic of this thread?

 

[Jimro]

All firearms are a compromise between three competing factors; accuracy, reliability, and price. Choose any two.

Jimro

 

[mr.scott]

What I find interesting is OP knew the number of Colts, LMT, extension but didn't name a single "lower tier" rifle.

 

[taliv]

i think that was intentional in order to avoid hurting anyone's feelings.

looks like this thread is starting to wander off on several tangents, so I'm going to close it before it devolves further