Highest velocity in 38 w/158

[ljnowell]

Okay, let's have some fun. My dad received a LCR 38 for Christmas(you're level one Dad!) am done it's time to get him some carry ammo.

I normally load my dad 158gn LSWC over 3.5 gm of WST. Great and accurate load. He is looking for more fire concealed carry. Let's start off with a few caveats:

1. He is not interested in hollow points, prefers the LSWC.

3. Yes, we are handloading carry ammo. No debate, it is what it is.

So, continuing, he will be shooting this from a snubby LCR. Powders can be most anything as I have access to most decent powders.

What has provided you with the highest velocity with this bullet weight? +p is ok, but not looking to push the envelope with this.

Anyone have any suggestions? I'm inclined to go with power pistol, as the flash doesn't bother myself or my father.

 

[Sunray]

If your Da wants to use cast bullets(that will expand to flat upon impact), velocity will be limited. Driving a cast bullet to excessive speeds causes leading. Your 3.5 of WST is running around 700 fps.(a very decided WHAG)
However, HS6 and CFE Pistol start a bit over 900 fps and go to a bit over 1,000 fps with a cast 158.
Muzzle flash and felt recoil out of a short barrel will be increased too. Your Da knows where you live too. If he can shoot the 700ish 158's well, leave him be. snicker.

 

[336A]

For (+P) loads in the .38 SPL I'm quite partial to Unique. It does very well with cast and swaged bullets and there's pages upon pages of data for it. Read this there is a lot of good stuff in here. http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reloading/125541-four-high-performance-38-special-handloads.html

 

[ljnowell]

If your Da wants to use cast bullets(that will expand to flat upon impact), velocity will be limited. Driving a cast bullet to excessive speeds causes leading. Your 3.5 of WST is running around 700 fps.(a very decided WHAG)

However, HS6 and CFE Pistol start a bit over 900 fps and go to a bit over 1,000 fps with a cast 158.

Muzzle flash and felt recoil out of a short barrel will be increased too. Your Da knows where you live too. If he can shoot the 700ish 158's well, leave him be. snicker.

I'll be using a BHN 18 bullet. These bullets have a good fit to the throats and haven't exhibited leading when loaded at lower velocity. I'm confident they will handle the velocity, it's the same bullet I load in 357 mag at full throttle. Expansion really isn't a concern either. I'm leary of any load that can pull 1000fps with a 158 out of a under 2" barrel.

The hs6 may be a really good option too. I've been wanting some to play with anyway, now I have justification.

I tried telling him that the WST load was sufficient with that bullet, a LSWC will penetrate well at moderate speeds. He likes them hot though and wants something with some zing behind it to carry.

 

[ljnowell]

For (+P) loads in the .38 SPL I'm quite partial to Unique. It does very well with cast and swaged bullets and there's pages upon pages of data for it. Read this there is a lot of good stuff in here. http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reloading/125541-four-high-performance-38-special-handloads.html

I've never cared for unique, but I have been considering it for this application. Since these aren't for me I'll do whatever it takes to achieve what he asks for, even if that means using unique, lol.

Edit: thanks for the link, it was good reading. I wish I felt safe working up around 10.5 grains or so of 2400 as I'm
Sitting on about 12 pounds of it and it would be a good use. All of the more recent load data I've seen with 2400 is a few grains less and the velocity is less than impressive. Shooting from an LCR, I'm just not comfortable with it.

I am starting to lean towards unique, as much as I hate to say it.

 

[murf]

if you are going to run hot loads in a ruger lcr, i'd check for bullet pull and use a 9mm sizing die and expander die after the 357 sizing die, if necessary, to prevent it.

don't have any hot loads for you i'm afraid. but, if you do decide on hs-6, i would try both a regular and a magnum primer with any worked up load. hs-6 usually likes a mag primer.

murf

 

[41 Mag]

Lj - you might try some AA-5, it is similar to Unique in velocity and usually isn't much on flash either. It can however produce some snappy loads.

Hope that helps, if the barrel was longer in something like a GP or similar I could pass you some of what I shoot in mine but due to the barrel lengths it would only result in big flashes of powder.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

My favorite 158gr LSWC load that isn't a plinker is made with HS-6. The charge is over current load data when you can find the combination. The data available now is for soft lead bullets, not hard cast. I found data from the 70s that verified my load is not over the +P pressure limits. Since it is over current published limits I won't post it here, I will PM it to you.

 

[ljnowell]

if you are going to run hot loads in a ruger lcr, i'd check for bullet pull and use a 9mm sizing die and expander die after the 357 sizing die, if necessary, to prevent it.

don't have any hot loads for you i'm afraid. but, if you do decide on hs-6, i would try both a regular and a magnum primer with any worked up load. hs-6 usually likes a mag primer.

murf

I always test for that in these lightweight guns. I only had an issue once, with a jacketed bullet. Good advice though for sure.

Lj - you might try some AA-5, it is similar to Unique in velocity and usually isn't much on flash either. It can however produce some snappy loads.



Hope that helps, if the barrel was longer in something like a GP or similar I could pass you some of what I shoot in mine but due to the barrel lengths it would only result in big flashes of powder.

I do have some AA5 as I really like the AA powders. I may try it too. Thanks.

My favorite 158gr LSWC load that isn't a plinker is made with HS-6. The charge is over current load data when you can find the combination. The data available now is for soft lead bullets, not hard cast. I found data from the 70s that verified my load is not over the +P pressure limits. Since it is over current published limits I won't post it here, I will PM it to you.

I appreciate that. I've made up my mind to order some hs6. Anyway. I've been seeing you and a couple other guys talk about it for so long I think it's something I have to play with more in depth.

 

[suemarkp]

You may want to try BE-86. I hear it is a "modern Unique", but has a flash suppressant added (but don't use Unique data, as I have no hard data that says they are the same). I have data for a 158gr LRNFP using 4.6gr of BE-86 and does about 950 fps (barrel length not stated). The OAL is 1.465 and the primer was a Fed 100. This was also a standard pressure load, not +P, so you may be able to push it a bit if you want to.

 

[Archie]

Power Pistol.

In most of the newer loading manuals. Is slow enough to get decent velocities without going over pressure limits.

For instance, with a 158 lead type bullet, the chronographed velocity is 746 fps. From a 2" S&W M&P. From longer barreled revolvers, the velocity, chronographed, is 898 fps from a 6" barreled revolver. Pressure is within 'standard' limits.

If Paw wants to go +p, it can do more.

However, Dad should try some of the 'standard' loads first. With a light revolver, a 'heavy' load can easily be too much of a good thing.

 

[zxcvbob]

This bullet, with about 4.5 grains of Unique or American Select. (I don't remember, the AS load might be 4.3 grains) http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...rain-Semi-Wad-Cutter-HP-Swaged-Lead-500-Count

If he's just dead-set against a soft lead HP, get Magnus #516, also available at Midsouth (it's the same bullet with a solid point)

 

[ljnowell]

Power Pistol.



In most of the newer loading manuals. Is slow enough to get decent velocities without going over pressure limits.



For instance, with a 158 lead type bullet, the chronographed velocity is 746 fps. From a 2" S&W M&P. From longer barreled revolvers, the velocity, chronographed, is 898 fps from a 6" barreled revolver. Pressure is within 'standard' limits.



If Paw wants to go +p, it can do more.



However, Dad should try some of the 'standard' loads first. With a light revolver, a 'heavy' load can easily be too much of a good thing.

I've loaded lots of 38 special over the years with power pistol. It's one of my favorites. Dad can handle some stiff loads. He shoots that lightweight gun surprisingly well. I have him some of my 125 grain JHP loaded with power pistol.

 

[ljnowell]

This bullet, with about 4.5 grains of Unique or American Select. (I don't remember, the AS load might be 4.3 grains) http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...rain-Semi-Wad-Cutter-HP-Swaged-Lead-500-Count



If he's just dead-set against a soft lead HP, get Magnus #516, also available at Midsouth (it's the same bullet with a solid point)

We aren't dead set against a HP design. The LSWC just gives decent performance at a lower price. That allows him to practice and carry with the same stuff.

I am more than willing to pick up those bullets. Have you ever tested them for expansion?

 

[zxcvbob]

No. I do use them, but I've never tried to recover one. The lead is so soft you can deform it by staring at it too hard. (well, almost) So I think it should mushroom as nicely as the old Remington FBI loads. If it doesn't expand, it's still a big heavy SWC.

Another bullet that I carry sometimes is Lee's 158 grain RNFP, cast with hard lead. It has a very wide flat nose, almost like a wadcutter. It cuts nice big clean holes in paper.

 

[JTHunter]

336A - thanks for those links. Good info.
After a number of years away from the loading bench, a couple of acquisitions over the last 18 months is putting me back in the game. What I got is a GP-100 in .357 (a relative has an SP-101 in .38 Special) and now I have a Marlin 1894 levergun that will shoot either.
I have FINALLY gotten enough brass to start reloading using Hornady 158 gr. XTP bullets and Winchester W296 powder. Haven't started yet but with this cold weather, now would be a good time!

 

[ljnowell]

No. I do use them, but I've never tried to recover one. The lead is so soft you can deform it by staring at it too hard. (well, almost) So I think it should mushroom as nicely as the old Remington FBI loads. If it doesn't expand, it's still a big heavy SWC.

Another bullet that I carry sometimes is Lee's 158 grain RNFP, cast with hard lead. It has a very wide flat nose, almost like a wadcutter. It cuts nice big clean holes in paper.

I may have to give them a try. I've loaded the hornady 158 SWCHP but can say I was unimpressed with it.

 

[Steve C]

Your fooling yourself if you think you get any expansion from a hard cast or even a soft swagged solid bullet at less than rifle velocity. They may deform on hard surfaces like steel but for a defensive load into a viscous material like animal or man they don't expand unless your shooting at Superman. They will make a nice hole but there's no significant advantage over the flat nose vrs the round nose except for cutting a clean hole through paper targets. You want a bigger hole, then shoot a bigger caliber or a hollow point anything else is imagination.

Regardless of which 158gr lead bullet you load my chrono'd results with +P loads using Unique, W231 and Tight Group is as shown in the attached pdf.

 

[TimSr]

I'm not a fan of 158gr JHP's from a .38 snub, as I am not confident they achieve enough velocity to expand.

Cast SWC HP's tend to shatter the nose rather than expand.

Soft lead often doesn't like to be pushed at +P

Most snubbies have fixed sights setup for lower velocity, heavier weight bullets.

Cast SWC tends to be good choice. You can generally load it up to +P level, and a BRN of 18 will work much better, at .38 max levels. If you have trouble finding +P load data for cast, use 158gr jacketed bullet data, as loads of the same weight and seating depth will generate less chamber pressure with a cast bullet.

I will offer my own alternative to consider. I use a cast 148gr DEWC, seated in the cannelure, over 7.1 gr Blue Dot which gives me 950fps, and I doubt it even reaches +P pressures. Shoots super accurrate in my Taurus 85 snub, and about 3" low at 25 yards. When working with wadcutters on the upper end you have to be careful and always consider the seating depth, as you can't just match bullet weights with other data.

 

[ljnowell]

Your fooling yourself if you think you get any expansion from a hard cast or even a soft swagged solid bullet at less than rifle velocity. They may deform on hard surfaces like steel but for a defensive load into a viscous material like animal or man they don't expand unless your shooting at Superman. They will make a nice hole but there's no significant advantage over the flat nose vrs the round nose except for cutting a clean hole through paper targets. You want a bigger hole, then shoot a bigger caliber or a hollow point anything else is imagination.



Regardless of which 158gr lead bullet you load my chrono'd results with +P loads using Unique, W231 and Tight Group is as shown in the attached pdf.

Who said anything about expansion from a solid bullet? I didn't see any expectations of that?