Loading 38 Special +P

[ssyoumans]

I always reloaded my regular 38 specials with 158gr LSWC using 3.5gr of Bullseye. I thought I would load me up some +P rounds for a change, so I looked at my powders on hand and thought I might try something different.

Any thoughts on these for 158gr MBC LSWC +P and why? These are the powders I have on hand.
Bullseye, Unique, Blue Dot, 2400, 231?

This is out of a +P rated snubbie. To me, although they list it with the highest velocity, it seems out of the normal operating pressure range for Blue Dot and 2400. I didn't think they were good choices at relatively low pressure of 38 +P (18,000). But if your experience is different, please weigh in.

 

[zxcvbob]

Bullseye or Unique will work. Probably 231 too, but I don't have much experience with that one. First try just bumping your BE load up to 4.0 grains.

 

[USSR]

5.0 grains of Unique will put you where you want to be.

Don

 

[Walkalong]

Agreed.

Of the powders you have, I would go with Unique. I am using AA #5, because my 10-6 HB loves it.

 

[Steve C]

For .38 spl 158gr lead +P I have loaded 5.0 to 5.2grs of Unique and 4.5 to 4.7grs of W231. Either powders work fine. These loads are equivalent in velocity to +P loads by Winchester, Remingoton and Federal. They do not come come close to the Buffalo bore level.

 

[mbopp]

I'm with Steve C - Unique and W231 though I've used BE and even Red Dot for mild loads.

 

[336A]

Of the powders that you have listed I would go with Unique. My (+P) .38 SPL load with a 158gr SWC for that powder (Unique) is the classic charge of 5.4gr, this is straight from the current Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook. Be careful and work your way up to it slowly, hope this helps.

 

[FROGO207]

I tried this with Blue Dot and found unburned powder and poor accuracy so recommend against it. YMMV

 

[jfh]

I like AA#5 for 38+P or 38CIP loads with 158 gr LSWCs.

added on edit: and, Ramshot's True Blue is right up there with AA#5.

Jim H.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I didn't think they were good choices at relatively low pressure of 38 +P (18,000). But if your experience is different, please weigh in.

Actually, the current SAAMI pressure limits for the .38 Special +P are 20,000 PSI.

I agree with Jim above, AA#5 is a good choice for heavy lead bullets at .38 Special +P pressures. I like it and I like my favorite powder for the .38 Special +P, HS-6. Both powders will get you there but you will have to extrapolate load data for the FBI Load because neither company provides data for heavy lead bullets at +P pressures. I have a load using HS-6 that will bump right up against 900 fps from a short barrel and "probably" stay within SAAMI limits. Since I have no way of testing the pressures I have to do a little "guessing" but safe guessing IMO. Take a look at the Hodgdon Load data for the standard pressure .38 Special using a 158gr LSWC and the .357 Magnum using the same bullet with HS-6. The .357 Magnum data will tell you a lot. Pay close attention to the pressures reported by Hodgdon for both and see if you can figure out the load I'm using and also see why I feel it's within SAAMI limits.

Actually, the new Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook lists a heavier load than I'm using and they report it's within SAAMI limits but that's new data I didn't have 2 years ago when I developed this load.

 

[joneb]

I use W-231 and AA#5 for .38spl with 158gr lswc's both of these powders meter very well for me. Unique works well but it does not meter well in my powder throw, so I don't feel comfortable using it for max. loads.

With powder lot variations and or component changes the loads should be carefully worked up.

 

[ssyoumans]

Thanks for all the input, I think I will work a few different loads with Unique for now, in the 4.3 to 4.6th range. My Alliant guide list 4.5gr as max. I see some conflicting data within the Lyman manual (I have it too), so not sure about 5.0 - 5.2+gr loads. Seems a bit hot. I'll compare these to some 158gr +p Winchester loads I have. Not trying for max speed, just comparable. Definitely not trying to match Buffalo bore's (my carry load, alternate is DPX).

 

[Harley Quinn]

I would consider the 5.0 or above a +P... The 17,000 area of pressure is normal 38 spl and has been for a long time, then came the +P and pressures were upped to 20,000, not a biggie if using a revolver of later design or steel...But the alloys might not take it well...When getting close to top pressure, you should be weighing, imho...

My thoughts anyway

 

[rhoggman]

Depending on the strength of your gun you could use the 2400. Elmer Keith's 38-44 loads were the predecessor to the .357 Magnum. He used 12.5 gr of 2400, small pistol primers (non-magnum), with either 158 gr or 173 gr lead bullets in 38 SPC brass. Please keep in mind these are only safe to shoot in .357 Mag pistols, or large frame 38 SPC pistols. I shoot these out of a .357, or a Colt Police Positive which is a 38 SPC on a 41 Mag frame.

I started out at 11 gr, and worked my way up. Lot of info on the web about Elmer Keith's loads.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Elmer Keith was in the 41,000 and up pressure range I have read

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/357_magnum_and_the_literature.htm

Good read about the high pressure he was working with and what others thought!!!

We couldn’t test the pressure at the time because the friend that has the equipment wasn’t available. But Elmer Keith writes that the pressure was 45 to 47,000 psi and I believe him, since he was involved in the development.

The 38 spl is at 17000 and 20000 with the +P...Wow is all I can say about exceeding pressure and that was some time ago...Metal and material were good but not as good as todays standards...

Special equipment was used to get the rating, and then what he actually fired in a revolver, might have been different, me thinks!!!

 

[rhoggman]

Like I said..... make sure if you consider his loads that you use and adequate firearm.

Please do research. Don't listen to me!

In the right gun they are great loads. I have a tone of 38 SPC brass which is a reason that I use his loads. I do use a sharpie marker to denote the difference between my regular 38 SPC loads. Every round is marked with an X accross the primer, and I note on the side the powder charge.

My wife has a small 38 SPC revolver, and I would NEVER shoot these loads in it, even though it is rated for +P. I also write on the box that the loads are UNSAFE.

Bottom line is the loads are great if they are used correctly. All modern 38 SPC brass can handle them, but not all of the guns can. Please use EXTREME care, and do your own due diligence.

 

[rhoggman]

I have read an awful lot about SAAMI pressures being reduced over time to accommodate small modern revolvers (collusion with the gun companies).

Moral of the story is pressure has been revised downward to accommodate cost cutting technology. Make sure before you shoot Elmer's loads the correct technology is employed.

Elmer Keith actually claimed that even after .357 guns were made that he got the best accuracy out of .38 SPC cases (brass). The funny part is that the only reason the case was increased by 1/8th of an inch was to insure that people were not shooting the high pressure loads out of the wrong firearm.

S&W actually made revolvers for a half a century to accommodate these high pressure loads. Look up the "Outdoorsman", or 38-44 HV. Seems most people have never heard of them.

Anyways..... depending on what you are shooting; the 38 SPC is much more versatile than today's loading manual suggest; mostly for legal reasons. If you have the right gun however the sky is the limit.

As long as you work up loads, and pay attention to what is happening, the 38 SPC is basically a rock star in hiding.

 

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


I have bought a number of 38 Special revolvers just for overload testing.

They have more than one thing that can get damaged:
1) cylinder splits, may or may not break the top strap.
This always seems to happen when I work up to ~ 2 gr more fast powder than the max published 357 mag load. I can't seem to do it with 8 gr more slow powder.
2) cylinder gets rotationally loose.
S&W revolvers have this problem, but not the Colt Police positive. The S&W can develop this problem suddenly with any load, but generally hot loads are worse than wimpy loads.
3) frame bends.
I had a Colt Agent Aluminum frame 38 sp bend the frame at 2 gr beyond 357 mag max load

 

[joneb]

I have bought a number of 38 Special revolvers just for overload testing.

I wish you were my neighbor Clark, that would be interesting

 

[Harley Quinn]

Clark, Are you holding on to these, or, are they in a vice of sorts

 

[Clark]

I hold them in my hand, but I can imagine the failure and which way parts will fly... to the sides.

38 sp cylinder pieces have put big holes in sheet metal and at other times, wood.
That stuff would kill a person if it hit them in the neck.

When I overload bolt action rifles, I hold them over my head, and the extractor pieces fly over my head.

Lots of guns I can just look at them and know there is no way they can fail before the brass, because the steel is so thick.

 

[Paladin38-40]

Old +P ?

I have a 1967 Pacific Cartridge Reloading manual that for a 158 grain cast SWC lists 5.5 grains of Unique at 1020 fps, p.300. Barrel length and pressure not indicated.

Also the 1981 NRA Handloading manual says on p. 246 that chamber pressure for .38 +P is (was?) established at 22,400 c.u.p.

 

[Clark]

Paladin38-40

Old +P ?
I have a 1967 Pacific Cartridge Reloading manual that for a 158 grain cast SWC lists 5.5 grains of Unique at 1020 fps, p.300. Barrel length and pressure not indicated.

Also the 1981 NRA Handloading manual says on p. 246 that chamber pressure for .38 +P is (was?) established at 22,400 c.u.p.

I have the same book.
All the loads in that book appear to have been lifted from Ackley's Reloading part I and II.

link to my essay on how to write a mediocre load book revision two