History question about the .32-20 Winchester

[jski]

A quick history question: The .32-20 Winchester cartridge was first introduced in the Winchester Model 1873. Was the .32-20 Winchester cartridge developed before then?

 

[jski]

I did find this little piece of interesting history:

.32-20 WCF is a pretty neat little round, and it’s been the inspiration and platform for numerous other successful, and non-successful cartridges alike. Some spinoffs based directly on the .32-20’s case are the .25-20 and the .218 Bee, and attempts to make a semi-automatic version for the Winchester Model 1905 rifle resulted in the .32 Winchester Self-Loading, which was the inspiration for the much more successful .30 Carbine round used in the US M1 Carbine.

 

[stringnut]

32 -20 was introduced in 1882 for the model 73 per COW. (Cartridges of the World)

 

[jski]

This is an interesting article!
.32-20 WCF: The First “Magnum” Pistol Cartridge?

 

[Speedo66]

This is an interesting article!
https://gundigest.com/handguns/small-miracle-327-federal-magnum/amp
.32-20 WCF: The First “Magnum” Pistol Cartridge?

The article that came up concerned the .327, unfortunately.

 

[.455_Hunter]

A lever-gun/revolver combo in .32WCF was definitely OK for general use for small to medium game and serviceable for two-legged concerns in areas where large predators were not a problem. You could definitely carry more ammo pound for pound than the .44 or .38 WCF.

 

[Crunchy Frog]

Winchester debuted the 1873 rifle and the .44 WCF cartridge at the same time. The .44 WCF begat the .38 WCF (which despite the name is the .44 WCF necked down to forty caliber. The .32 WCF came later. All are slightly bottlenecked cartridges that feed well in a rifle.

 

[Jim Watson]

The .25-20 Winchester did not come out until the 1892 rifle.
But there was already a well known .25-20 Single Shot, so they had the incentive to get into the caliber.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

.32-20 was introduced in 1882.
The Winchester Model 1873 rifle was chambered for .32-20 before the Model 1892.
The Winchester Model 1892 was introduced as a modern replacement for the Model 1873 and was chambered for cartridges used in the Model 1873, including the .32-20.
.25-20 was introduced in 1895 and first offered in the Model 1892.
I have found no indication .25-20 was retro-fitted to the Model 1873.

 

[jski]

The article that came up concerned the .327, unfortunately.

Thanks!
I corrected it above but here it is again:
.32-20 WCF: The First “Magnum” Pistol Cartridge?

 

[Crosshair]

All are slightly bottlenecked cartridges that feed well in a rifle.

Don't forget extraction as well. Extremely important given the case manufacturing and metallurgy available at the time.

 

[cfullgraf]

It is nice to learn a bit of history of 32-20WCF cartridge. I have a Winchester 1873 built in 1890 chambered in 32-20 that is fun to shoot.

 

[Jim Watson]

Don't forget extraction as well. Extremely important given the case manufacturing and metallurgy available at the time.

And sealing. The thin brass of the WCFs expands to seal the chamber well and help keep black powder fouling out of the action. .45 Colt has been beefed up and the gun runs dirtier; I have read of people annealing .45 LC brass for better obturation at low pressure.

 

[jski]

And sealing. The thin brass of the WCFs expands to seal the chamber well and help keep black powder fouling out of the action. .45 Colt has been beefed up and the gun runs dirtier; I have read of people annealing .45 LC brass for better obturation at low pressure.

I don't think that Starline's 32-20 brass is "thin".

 

[Jim Watson]

Their .44-40 is pretty thin, but Winchester is better. I haven't done anything with their .32-20.

 

[jski]

Their .44-40 is pretty thin, but Winchester is better. I haven't done anything with their .32-20.

Better than …? Starline?

 

[jski]

Thought I’d post this Taffin article because it’s just that good:

TAFFIN TESTS: THE .32-20

...JOHN TAFFIN

For the past twenty years or so, handguns have been modernized to the point of being chambered for many rifle cartridges. In the 1950's, who could have ever predicted that handguns would be chambered for the .30-30 Winchester? The .35 Remington? Even the .45-70? And the latter has been chambered in both revolvers and single-shots! Yes, we are thoroughly modern and up-to-date. Or are we?

More than 100 years ago, Colt started a trend that has been resurrected and continues even to this day. The popular rifle cartridges of the 1870's were the .32-20, .38-40, and the .44-40. Since they were all short, stubby, relatively low pressure cartridges by "modern" standards, it just seemed the natural thing to do to chamber each of them in the Colt Single Action Army to join with the original chambering, the .45 Colt. The up-to-date shooters a century ago could have a rifle and sixgun chambered for the same cartridge.

As rifle cartridges became more sophisticated, there seemed to be little room left for the pleasant little trio of W.C.F. (Winchester Center Fire) cartridges and all of them were dropped before World War II as both rifle and sixgun chamberings. There, that was the end of that. After the war, the watchword for both rifle and pistol shooters was Magnum. With the advent of rifle cartridges from Weatherby, Winchester, and Remington, faster was better and and The Magnum Era of handgun cartridges really blossomed as the .357 Magnum was joined by the .44 and then the .4l Magnums. Then came the Handcannon T/C's from SSK, the line of SuperMags from Dan Wesson, the Freedom Arms .454 Casull, and the custom .475 and 500 from Linebaugh Custom Guns. Yes, bigger definitely became better.

And then a strange thing happened. Shooters began to discover that there really was room for the older, milder, more traditional cartridges. And the oldies started to come back. The .45-70 and the .45 Colt are more popular than ever, the .44-40 has a small group of appreciative followers, and wonder of wonders, suddenly the .32-20 is alive and well again.

The .32-20 has always held a fascination for me for two reasons. My two favorite writers both really started their sixgun-writing careers with the .32-20. Elmer Keith related how, as a teenager, he broke broncs to get enough money to buy his first centerfire Colt Single Action, a seven and one-half inch .32-20. Thirty years later, Skeeter Skelton, freshly mustered out of the service at the end of WWII, stopped in Chicago long enough to purchase, yep, you guessed it, a seven and one-half inch Colt Single Action .32-20. When two gentlemen of such sixgunnin' stature as these two start with the .32-20, one has to take notice.

My search for the .32-20 has not been so successful as my mentors.

Have you priced a .32-20 seven and one-half inch Colt Single Action lately? Although I've seen them priced in the trade papers, I've never seen one in more than thirty years of attending guns shows. Maybe I should re-phrase that. I've never seen one in shooting shape that I could afford even in my wildest dreams.

Just when all seemed the darkest as far as the .32-20 is concerned, along came Hunter Pistol/Field Pistol courses of fire under NRA and IHMSA and the deep need was for a light-recoiling, flat- shooting, pistol cartridge for use in short range silhouetting. My Stetson is off to whoever it was that decided to chamber the Thompson/Center Contender in .32-20.

That opened the doors and Marlin chambered their handy, dandy little lever action carbine in .32-20, and finally we had an honest-to-goodness single action sixgun in .32-20 from Ruger. The Ruger .32-20's were a special run that were available only through Buckeye Sports, a Canton, Ohio distributor. As an extra added bonus, the .32-20 Ruger is a convertible, that is it comes with an auxiliary cylinder chambered for the excellent little Mighty Mouse Magnum, the .32 H&R Magnum.

Even though the .32-20 will reward the reloader with exceptional accuracy, one has to be more than a little traditional-minded to appreciate the .32-20. While it is basically the same length as the .357-.41-.44 magnum trio, it is not quite as easy to load as "normal" revolver cartridges for two very important reasons.

First, it is a bottle-necked, or tapered, cartridge which means carbide sizing dies are not available and the reloader must go through the messy task of lubing cases before sizing and then wiping them clean afterwards. Some of the new water soluble lubes really look good here.

Secondly, the necks of .32-20 brass are literally paper thin. Hit the mouth of the case on the bottom of the sizing or expanding die, albeit ever so slightly, and the brass is gone. Friend Mike Venturino calls anyone "ham-handed" that has trouble with the tapered trio of .32-20, .38-40, .44-40, as regards paper thin necks and the high ratio of case loss. As one who always experiences a high rate of case loss, I plead guilty to the charge. I lose a fair amount of brass when reloading any of these, and especially the .32-20. The solution, of course, is simply to slow down and be a little more careful.

Loading the .32-20 also requires some knowledge of the groove diameter of the barrel. The Thompson/Center chambering of the .32-20 is in reality a .30-20 as the barrel is .30 caliber, rather than .32 caliber. That is not quite as drastic as it seems as .32 barrels are normally .312-.314" while .30 barrels are usually .308". SO the difference in .30 and .32 barrels are not .020" as one might expect but only .004" to .006".

Both of the .32-20 test guns used for this edition of Taffin Tests are in reality ".30-20's" as the Ruger Blackhawk used is a custom .32-20 from Hamilton Bowen and is equipped with a seven and one-half inch .308" barrel. The Bowen .32-20 has very tight chambers precluding the use of anything but .308" bullets while the T/C .32-20 accepts both .308" and .312-314" bullets.

Both test guns are chambered for ".30-20" because of bullet availability and .32-20 dies provided by Thompson/Center are quite versatile as they have two expander buttons, one for .308" bullets and the other for .312"-.314" bullets. However, more and more suitable bullets are becoming available in .32 caliber and Speer has just announced a 100 grain .32 JHP to join Hornady's 85 grain and Speer's 90 grain .32 JHP's.

Since the .32-20 started life as a rifle cartridge, I normally use rifle primers, namely CCI's #400 Small Rifle Primers in loading the .32-20 be it for use in the Contender or the Ruger Blackhawk. And, while those .32-20 users that are deeply involved in Hunter Pistol/Field Pistol opt for a number of different rifle powders, I am more traditional and stay with the normal magnum pistol powders, namely #2400, H4227, H110, WW296, and WW680. These are my favorites for loading the Magnum revolver cartridges and while the .32-20 is more than 100 years old and arrived long before the use of the term "Magnum", its potential definitely puts it into the Magnum Class.

A standard load for the .32-20 for at least 50 years has been Lyman's #311316, a 120 grain flat-nosed gas check cast bullet over 10.0 grains of #2400. I was particularly anxious to try this long-time favorite in the Contender .32-20, .308" barrel. Sized at .312", the Lyman .32-20 bullets shoots into less than one-inch at 25 yards and moves out at a very respectable 1549 fps. A duplication of this load can be assembled with 12.0 grains of H4227 and is even more accurate, shooting into almost one-half inch at 25 yards.

In the Bowen Custom seven and one-half inch Blackhawk, this same load moves out at 1350 fps and is flat-shooting and an excellent choice for short range silhouetting or varminting.

New on the scene is Lead Bullet Technology's .32-20 bullet, #120311FN. Loaded over 15.0 grains of WW680, this bullet gets down real close to one-hole performance. Like its counterpart from Lyman, this flat-nosed gas-checked design is excellent for use on varmints be it from a sixgun, a single-shot Contender or a .32-20 carbine. Cast hard, it does the job without damaging a lot of meat should the target be small game. And both bullets are superb choices for cast bullet use in Hunter Pistol/Field Pistol competition.

Speer's 110 grain JHP known as the "Varminter" is perfect for use in the .32-20. Using this bullet over 13.0 grains of #2400 in the ten-inch Contender gives velocities close to 2000 fps and groups that run under one-half inch. This bullet's performance as to accuracy is almost monotonous as nearly every load tried with all powders used shot into one and one-quarter inches or less.

This same bullet, Speer's 110 grain "Varminter", also performs exceptionally well in the Bowen Blackhawk with either 11.0 grains of #2400 @ 1502 fps or 13.0 grains of H4227 @ 1525 fps.

Switching to more conventional rifle bullets for use in the T/C Contender really makes the .32-20 sing. Although loaded rounds look quite strange with the tiny 1.315" brass loaded with Hornady 110 grain Spire Point and Speer 130 grain Flat Point bullets, performance is the best I have ever experienced accuracy-wise in thirty plus years of handgunning. Both bullets yield five-shot groups of one-fourth inch, center-to-center at 25 yards. For the Hornady 110 SP the load is 15.0 grains of H110 for 1970 fps, while like performance comes from the Speer 130FP over 15.0 grains of WW680 for 1576 fps.

While it may not be the best choice for a self defense cartridge, and while it is definitely not a big game or long range silhouette cartridge, the .32-20, like its younger, smaller brother the .32 Magnum, it is just about as good as it gets when it comes to Hunter Pistol/Field Pistol or short range varminting.

 

[Jeff olson]

.32-20 was introduced in 1882.
The Winchester Model 1873 rifle was chambered for .32-20 before the Model 1892.
The Winchester Model 1892 was introduced as a modern replacement for the Model 1873 and was chambered for cartridges used in the Model 1873, including the .32-20.
.25-20 was introduced in 1895 and first offered in the Model 1892.
I have found no indication .25-20 was retro-fitted to the Model 1873.

I think 25 wcf was around earlier than 1895. Or are you just speaking of the model 1892?

 

[jski]

More tidbits:

..32 Winchester Self-Loading / .32 WSL

Warning! Notes: The 32 Winchester Self Loader cartridge is in the same class as the 32-20 Winchester, strictly a small to medium game number at close range. However, it is not nearly as flexible as the 32-20 because of the semi-automatic rifle in which it was used. This was never a very popular cartridge. Not only was the cost of ammunition relatively high, but in addition, the cartridge is not well-suited to reloading, even if you could find the empty cases after being ejected from the action. (Cartridges of the World 11th Edition)

 

[DDDWho]

 

[Jeff olson]

The .25-20 Winchester did not come out until the 1892 rifle.
But there was already a well known .25-20 Single Shot, so they had the incentive to get into the caliber.

I have an 1885 low wall in 25 wcf. Made in 1892. Are You saying it was only offered in the 1892 or in an 1892 rifle?

 

[Jim Watson]

I meant it was introduced with the 1892 repeater. They would put anything in a Single Shot.

 

[jski]

Oh yeah, my recently inherited Colt Police Positive Special chambered in .32-20 Winchester.

Mechanically speaking, she’s a Swiss clock.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The Model 1873 Winchester was introduced with the 44-40 cartridge, aka 44 Winchester Center Fire, aka 44 WCF in 1873.

In 1879 The Model 1873 was first chambered for the 38-40 cartridge, aka 38 Winchester Center Fire, aka 38 WCF.

In 1882 the Model 1873 was chambered for the 32-20 cartridge, aka 32 Winchester Center Fire, aka 32 WCF.

All of these cartridges were developed by Winchester. The Model 1873 was also chambered for 22 Short Rimfire. I do not have a date when these were first offered.

This is a typical Model 1873 Winchester, this one is chambered for 38-40.






Left to right in this photo the cartridges are 44-40, 38-40, 32-20. Since these were originally Black Powder cartridges, the cases were completely filled with Black Powder; 40 grains, 40 grains, and 20 grains. The relative sizes of the cartridge cases gives rough idea of the power of each cartridge.






The Model 1892 Winchester was designed by John M Browning. It was basically a scaled down version of his larger Model 1886. The Model 1892 was stronger than the toggle link Model 1873, it was about a pound lighter in similar configurations, and it was less expensive to manufacture than the Model 1873. However, because of its popularity with shooters, the Model 1873 continued to be manufactured until 1923.

This is a typical Model 1892 Winchester, this one is chambered for 44-40.



When introduced in 1892, the Model 1892 was chambered for 44-40, 38-40, and 32-20. In 1895 it was first chambered for 25-20, a necked down version of the 32-20. In 1939 the Model 1892 was chambered for .218 Bee, also developed by Winchester.

All of the above information is from The Winchester Handbook, by George Madis.




The three firearms in this photo are all chambered for 32-20. The rifle is a Winchester Model 1892, the revolver on the left is a Smith and Wesson 32-20 Hand Ejector, the revolver on the right is a Colt Police Positive Special.






Regarding the thinness of 32-20 brass, all the old WCF cartridges such as 44-40, 38-40, and 32-20 have relatively thin brass at the case mouth. Usually around .007 thick. Straight case cartridges such as 45 Colt or 38 Special have brass around .012 thick at the case mouth. Contrary to popular believe, it is not the bottle neck shape of the WCF cartridges that makes them expand better to keep Black Powder fouling in the chamber of a rifle, it is the thinness of the brass at the case mouth. This allows the brass to expand and seal the chamber with the relatively low pressure developed by Black Powder. The thicker brass of 45 Colt does not expand as well under Black Powder pressures and allows fouling to blow by the case in the chamber and foul the action more than the thinner brass at the case mouths of the WCF cartridges.

 

[jski]

Howdy

The Model 1873 Winchester was introduced with the 44-40 cartridge, aka 44 Winchester Center Fire, aka 44 WCF in 1873.

In 1879 The Model 1873 was first chambered for the 38-40 cartridge, aka 38 Winchester Center Fire, aka 38 WCF.

In 1882 the Model 1873 was chambered for the 32-20 cartridge, aka 32 Winchester Center Fire, aka 32 WCF.

All of these cartridges were developed by Winchester. The Model 1873 was also chambered for 22 Short Rimfire. I do not have a date when these were first offered.

This is a typical Model 1873 Winchester, this one is chambered for 38-40.

View attachment 1021530




Left to right in this photo the cartridges are 44-40, 38-40, 32-20. Since these were originally Black Powder cartridges, the cases were completely filled with Black Powder; 40 grains, 40 grains, and 20 grains. The relative sizes of the cartridge cases gives rough idea of the power of each cartridge.

View attachment 1021531




The Model 1892 Winchester was designed by John M Browning. It was basically a scaled down version of his larger Model 1886. The Model 1892 was stronger than the toggle link Model 1873, it was about a pound lighter in similar configurations, and it was less expensive to manufacture than the Model 1873. However, because of its popularity with shooters, the Model 1873 continued to be manufactured until 1923.

This is a typical Model 1892 Winchester, this one is chambered for 44-40.

View attachment 1021532

When introduced in 1892, the Model 1892 was chambered for 44-40, 38-40, and 32-20. In 1895 it was first chambered for 25-20, a necked down version of the 32-20. In 1939 the Model 1892 was chambered for .218 Bee, also developed by Winchester.

All of the above information is from The Winchester Handbook, by George Madis.




The three firearms in this photo are all chambered for 32-20. The rifle is a Winchester Model 1892, the revolver on the left is a Smith and Wesson 32-20 Hand Ejector, the revolver on the right is a Colt Police Positive Special.

View attachment 1021533




Regarding the thinness of 32-20 brass, all the old WCF cartridges such as 44-40, 38-40, and 32-20 have relatively thin brass at the case mouth. Usually around .007 thick. Straight case cartridges such as 45 Colt or 38 Special have brass around .012 thick at the case mouth. Contrary to popular believe, it is not the bottle neck shape of the WCF cartridges that makes them expand better to keep Black Powder fouling in the chamber of a rifle, it is the thinness of the brass at the case mouth. This allows the brass to expand and seal the chamber with the relatively low pressure developed by Black Powder. The thicker brass of 45 Colt does not expand as well under Black Powder pressures and allows fouling to blow by the case in the chamber and foul the action more than the thinner brass at the case mouths of the WCF cartridges.

That is a wonderful trip down a piece Ol' West history! Thank you very much!

I especially loved the picture showing the "BIG 3" WCF rounds. That captures a lot in 1 picture!