HK P7-Wow!

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I did a Google search on the words new jersey state police accidental discharge p7. One of the results was a link to the e-book version of Massad Ayoob's 2007 book "The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery". The link is VERY long, so I will not post it here. But in the book, Ayoob does mention the adoption of the HK P7 by the New Jersey State Police in 1984, but does NOT mention any accidental discharges in service with them. In the next paragraph, speaking of the gun in general and not New Jersey in particular, Ayoob remarks "Many instructors associated the design with a likelihood of accidental discharge." He does not elaborate on this.

I could not come up with any actual incidents of accidental discharge by the NJSP, but given how long the guns have been out of service, that does not mean much.
 
I used to own an H&K P7. It was one of the ones with somewhat of a purple-ish cast to the bluing that came into the US in the late-90's. Was told that it was a former military pistol, that could've been BS though.

While its small size and the uniqueness are the reason I bought it in the first place I grew to hate that squeeze cocker mechanism and it felt unsafe for anything other than target shooting because of the reciprocal nature of the way the fingers work on the human hand.

When I'd bring it up to the eye to aim I'd align the sights and squeeze the squeeze-cocker and to then start to squeeze the trigger but all my fingers would want to close at once when I'd squeeze the de-cocker because of the pressure of my middle finger, ring finger and little finger. It felt off and didn't seem natural to me at all.

You'd have to shoot one to see what I mean. Some people like them and some don't and I'm one of the ones who doesn't.

It did have an awesome trigger and muzzle rise was minimal.

Just not for me.
 
Browning said:
When I'd bring it up to the eye to aim I'd align the sights and squeeze the squeeze-cocker and to then start to squeeze the trigger but all my fingers would want to close at once when I'd squeeze the de-cocker because of the pressure of my middle finger, ring finger and little finger. It felt off and didn't seem natural to me at all.
Click to expand...
The manual of arm for the P7 is to cock the striker at the same point in the draw as you'd swipe off the thumb safety of a 1911...as the gun rotates from vertical to horizontal...as the trigger finger is along the frame.

As you sights reach eye level, you place the trigger finger on the trigger and start the press. As the sights align on target, you complete the press and break the shot.
 
I did not say I could not provide an occurrence; I said talk to Massad Ayoob; he will fill you in on the details. And I did not put into question the credibility (not 'creditably') of anyone. And I also did not claim a 'rash' of shootings (define 'rash'). And longevity of issue police equipment has nothing to do with quality/suitability/performance; it hinges on both low bids and politics. Anyhow; last post for me on the subject. P.S. The P7 bit the dust long ago. The Glock is still going strong. What does that tell you?
 
Shootshellz said:
I did not say I could not provide an occurrence; I said talk to Massad Ayoob; he will fill you in on the details. And I did not put into question the credibility (not 'creditably') of anyone. And I also did not claim a 'rash' of shootings (define 'rash').
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What you said was:
Shootshellz said:
The New Jersey state police got rid of them as standard issue due to too many of their troopers shooting themselves in the thigh.
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There are 2400 NJSP troopers. How many is too many?

And would you say this "too many" number is well distributed over 18 years of service, or did they take place shortly after adoption, and then they spent another 15 years trying to "get rid of them"?

Shootshellz said:
The Glock is still going strong. What does that tell you?
Click to expand...
That Glocks cost police less than virtually any other pistol, especially if you factor the buy back programs Glock pretty much created.
 
Browning

While its small size and the uniqueness are the reason I bought it in the first place I grew to hate that squeeze cocker mechanism and it felt unsafe for anything other than target shooting because of the reciprocal nature of the way the fingers work on the human hand.

When I'd bring it up to the eye to aim I'd align the sights and squeeze the squeeze-cocker and to then start to squeeze the trigger but all my fingers would want to close at once when I'd squeeze the de-cocker because of the pressure of my middle finger, ring finger and little finger. It felt off and didn't seem natural to me at all.

You'd have to shoot one to see what I mean. Some people like them and some don't and I'm one of the ones who doesn't.

It did have an awesome trigger and muzzle rise was minimal.

Just not for me.
Click to expand...

Pretty much mirrors my own experiences with the P7. Mine also had the purplish cast to the slide and I was told by HK that it could have been caused by different metal composition, different heat treatment, slight changes in the bluing solution or a combination of all three.
 
Just to provide some clarity on the N.J.S.P. use of the P7M8. The S&W replacement pistols, in 2001, were not performing well and the HK was re-issued to troopers. Here's a link to the press release. It provides some info for those interested. The P7 was eventually replaced by Sigs.
http://www.njsp.org/news/newsitem03_14a_01.htm

I often wonder why the N.J.S.P. are so singled out as the example. Scores of LE agencies used the P7, a few still do. Why is poor New Jersey picked on so much?
 
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usp9 said:
Why is poor New Jersey picked on so much?
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Likely because they were the first and largest agency to adopt the pistol.

There is always the point that the M8, and by extension the M13, modifications to the original were the result of the N.J.S.P. requirements
 
Shootshellz said:
Anyhow; last post for me on the subject. P.S. The P7 bit the dust long ago. The Glock is still going strong. What does that tell you?
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It tells me that Glocks are both cheap to supply and still in production.

The P7 is a complex weapon that was costly to manufacture by men who have long since retired. You're comparing apples and oranges, but I guess its helpful to all those who want to sell off their high quality P7M8s and buy dime a dozen Glocks.
 
I would guess that most of the NDs with the P7 were caused by folks having the trigger pulled and then squeezing the grip. Folks tend to play with things. Without the grip cocker squeezed and held you can wiggle that trigger all day long, but if you have the the trigger held back and then squeeze the cocker....BANG!

Also yep Mr. Pointer does tend to want to do the same thing Tall Boy, Ring Finger, and Pinkie are doing, especially under stress........and guess what? The same thing goes on when you have your Glo-ig-etta-ssen gripped under stress IF Mr. Pointer is on the freaking trigger.

Guess what? When glocks were first being issued for LEO use there were NDs. Folks tried to blame them on the safety action trigger catching on a holster strap.......but investigations indicated it was officers attempting to holster the pistol with their trigger finger on the trigger.

Back in the late 1950's there was something doctors jokingly called "Gun Fighter Syndrome" this was a gun shot wound to the leg at a downward angle suffered by the practicioners of the TV and Movie Driven western style quick draw. The main cause was folks cocking a SAA type pistol while at least part of the gun was still in the holster and with Mr. Pointer FOllowing everyone else in the draw touching the hair fine trigger while the muzzle was still in the holster and so pointed at the leg of the shooter.

These were all training issues. No one that is properly trained is more likely to ND a P7 than any other service pistol.

Since we have mentioned Mas lets look at one of his other drills he maked folks do to think. Get two small paper cups. Fill one pretty much up to the rim with water. Hold that one in your shooting hand and extend it like in one handed firing. Now with the off hand crumble up the empty cup into as small a ball as possible. Do this while you are answering questions someone is asking you.

What do you think happens to the cup of water?

He does, or did, that drill to impress upon you the need for awareness and thinking. DON'T point a gun to cover someone with your finger on the trigger while doing something with the off hand!

See? Training issue.

As to costs.......

Folks tend to forget that one reason all German Guns are so freaking expensive in the US is that were do still have protective tariffs on some items. When I bought my P7 in Germany they cost, in Germany about $350 and when they started really being available in the US a year later they were about twice that here. The same was true of other company's guns. Back in the Mid 1970's when I returned to CONUS from Germany after my first tour the little anshutz .22 rifle I brought in on a Form 6A tax free sold from Savage for over $200, while I had paid less than $70 in Neu-Ulm a few miles across the river from the plant. Walther PP and P-1 pistols were also about half price in Germany what they were here. I even paid about $20 for an HS Schmidt SA .22 convertible revolver (think Heritage Rough Rider sort of) when they dealered in the US at twice that and then some.

I don't think a P7 made in Turkey would cost near as much imported into the US as a Tutonic one. Not just because of labor issues, but because of a different tariff structure on Turkish firearms imports.

-kBob
 
bannockburn said:
Browning :

Pretty much mirrors my own experiences with the P7. Mine also had the purplish cast to the slide and I was told by HK that it could have been caused by different metal composition, different heat treatment, slight changes in the bluing solution or a combination of all three.
Click to expand...

Is that what it was? All I know was that it was a different looking sort of bluing. I've never seen one with that shade before or since.

It was an interesting gun and I'm glad that I got the chance to try it, but I haven't missed it once since I sold it.

---

On the manual of arms that makes sense, that's how I was trained to draw and fire 1911's. It's just with the P7 since all my fingers wanted to close at once even though the gun was pointed in the general direction at that point on the draw-stroke that wasn't good enough and I didn't want to engage the trigger until I was pointed all the way at the target.

For me shooting the 1911 is very natural since I grew up shooting one ever since I was a kid, the P7 not so much.
 
I, too had the manual of arms problem. If I shot the P7 and the P7 only for about three weeks, I could get in tune with it. But I could not use it in "rotation" with conventional action types and keep it smooth and safe.

There is also the draw stroke. If you learned to take a firing grip on a conventional gun in the holster, you will find the P7 cocked in the holster. Trigger finger control with a 3 lb SA is essential.
I worked on a draw with a "plucking" motion so I could do as pip says "The manual of arm for the P7 is to cock the striker at the same point in the draw as you'd swipe off the thumb safety of a 1911...as the gun rotates from vertical to horizontal...as the trigger finger is along the frame."
That worked, if as above, I did it all the time. But one afternoon with a Colt and it all went out the window, three weeks to relearn the H&K Way.
So I sold the P7, happy to get my money back out of it, the escalation from Polizei Pistol to Collector's Item had not yet begun.
 
That really isn't "the" way to deal with the P7. The cocking lever isn't a safety - it is half of a DA trigger. You can pull it first, simultaneously or second. There is really no reason to compress the cocker until the gun is readied to be fired, which might mean a 1, 2: cocker, trigger - or pulling them both at once.

For the same reason, you don't run around in combat with the P7 cocked. You treat it like a DA/SA auto, and cock/fire when there is a threat.

This philosophically doesn't work for some people, because they believe that what they were taught about firing grips has to apply universally, but with a P7 you use your thumb to control the pistol instead of having it sticking up doing nothing. Once you understand that the gun is controlled with the palm, thumb and pinky, then you can get things done with the remaining three fingers.
 
Jim Watson

I, too had the manual of arms problem. If I shot the P7 and the P7 only for about three weeks, I could get in tune with it. But I could not use it in "rotation" with conventional action types and keep it smooth and safe.
Click to expand...

Same thing with me; if I took only the P7 to the range and used it exclusively for awhile, I was okay with it. But if I took it along with a few other guns, like a 1911 or a Hi-Power, it was back to Square 1 with the P7. In the end I felt the squeeze-cocking mechanism just wasn't worth the whole learning/relearning process whenever I used it nor did any of my other guns require such a dedicated effort to shoot them.
 
Jim Watson said:
I, too had the manual of arms problem. If I shot the P7 and the P7 only for about three weeks, I could get in tune with it. But I could not use it in "rotation" with conventional action types and keep it smooth and safe.
Click to expand...
Funny for me the P7 is just so natural I can switch between it and a 1911 without missing a beat, different strokes I guess.

I know my draw stroke is different as no matter what gun I have I don't try to get a firing grip in the holster, I basically lift the gun from the holster with my fingers (not enough pressure to cock my P7) and don't wrap my thumb until the gun is clearing leather.
 
Cost, probably. Although one of the three guns authorized to replace the .32s, relatively few German PDs bought them instead of Sig. I think the Walther was even less widely adopted.
HK soon came along with the USP, officially the Universal Selfloading Pistol, although one wag said it stood for "United States Pistol" because of its conventional layout with proper thumb safety.
 
It's shame HK can't make the gun today. Everything I read about it is that it's the greatest handgun ever made, and is THE "gunfighters" semi-auto pistol. I checked prices and these appear to be going for above $1500, sometimes well above that if in good shape. Out of my budget but a COOL design. I'll just have to stick to my peon Makarovs!
 
Cooldill, where are you in KS, if you're in the Wichita area I'd be happy to meet up at one of the local ranges and let you shoot mine.
 
mavracer said:
Cooldill, where are you in KS, if you're in the Wichita area I'd be happy to meet up at one of the local ranges and let you shoot mine.
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I'm about 2 hours from you. That is very kind! Fate might bring us together one day. I will let you know if I'm ever down there. I go to McConnell sometimes for training.
 
Jim,

When I left Hanau in 82 I believe the Hessian Police academy was training with and issuing the P5. The Bavarians and Baden-Westhiem police I dealt with were just getting Sigs. Oddly given the police academy (located across the street from my office in Hanau) passing out P5s at the time, the day I trained with the Frankfurt Special Police Group the SWAT cops were training with the Sigs. They used MP5s, MP5k, and MP5SD guns that day. Even odder than the Sigs when other Hessian cops had P5s though were the Uzis the FSPG used from inside an armored range rover.......a pair in a roof turret yet. I never was clear on exactly where the ejected rounds on the left hand gun were supposed to go...... Seemed silly to me, but I would not say so to my hosts. We did interesting walking drills with the handguns and MP5 and MP5k with a neat sling and no stock. The MP5SD were scoped and fired slow fire from a rest. I fired some drills with their Sigs and some with my S&W M19 six inch and some with my P7. I have to admit the M19 raised a bigger group of fans and more requests to help me shoot up my ammo. There were a number of these guys that felt the P7 would have been better for them than the Sig.....and some not.... but the choice was not their's to make. They did "trade" ammo with me for the .357 stuff though and as a result I carried the 131 grain subsonic 9x19mm they used in the SD for a bit ( bullet shape was not as pointed as the Geco standard stuff) and so had some on hand when I finally got hands very briefly on a "Swedish K" M45 suppressed SMG. I liked the Sigs which were the single stack 9s, but did not care for P5s and neither concealed as well.

Almost every policeman I had contact with in Germany on my tour ending 6 years before that carried the Walther PP in .32ACP, though a few carried the P-1 (P-38) this being in the two southern states again. I had a mailing address in Bavaria but spent half my time a bit south of Stuttgard and Swabish Gemund. Uniform police at that time carried concealed under their uniform jacket with access through a higher than normal skirt slit on the right side.

Not sure what the normal Federal Highway police carried.....but a mid level friend was authorized to carry his privately owned Colt Commander in .45 ACP. I was told that such arrangements were very unusual in any German Service.

-kBob
 
I lived in Germany for two years and saw some H&Ks riding in holsters, as well as a bunch of MP5s and MP7s at various locals. Very cool guns.
 
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