GHinNH
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Ok, it's a new one on me, maybe I just never noticed before. The question is why?
Hollow base pistol bullets
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Starter52
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Accuracy. Hollow based .38 wadcutter bullets have been around for a century of more.
Also, in less accurate rounds like the 9mm, a hollow base allows a lighter (cheaper) bullet to have a greater overall length, which aids in feeding from the magazine.
Also, in less accurate rounds like the 9mm, a hollow base allows a lighter (cheaper) bullet to have a greater overall length, which aids in feeding from the magazine.
tightgroup tiger
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That depends on which hollowbase bullets your talking about.
Hollowbased wadcutters are soft lead bullets that have a hollow base that will expand out to fill and seal the bore with very low powered loads. You usually see these with revolver loads like 32 S&W long, 38 spl and other low powered loads and because they seal better in the bore, they also reduce leading due to the hollow base expanding out to seal things up.
A flat based bullet with low loads won't do this as efficiently.
I'm not sure why Berry's came out with the plated hollow based bullets in 9mm, possibly for more bearing surface with the riflings.
These two bullets are two completely different animals and with completely different reason for having a hollow base.
Hollowbased wadcutters are soft lead bullets that have a hollow base that will expand out to fill and seal the bore with very low powered loads. You usually see these with revolver loads like 32 S&W long, 38 spl and other low powered loads and because they seal better in the bore, they also reduce leading due to the hollow base expanding out to seal things up.
A flat based bullet with low loads won't do this as efficiently.
I'm not sure why Berry's came out with the plated hollow based bullets in 9mm, possibly for more bearing surface with the riflings.
These two bullets are two completely different animals and with completely different reason for having a hollow base.
Would the hollow base in something like Berry's plated round nose allow for a loaded cartridge with more internal space, allowing for a lower pressure at a fixed charge and COAL, or not so much? I have some of the Berry's 100gn .380 hollow base round nose projectiles, haven't gotten around to loading them though
I couldn't tell you if the hollow based Berrys bullets allow for more internal space since Berrys recommends using either lead round nose loading data or sticking with the starting/minimum charge for FMJ bullets. I have been using the exact same bullets to reload 380 using Hodgdon Universal and they shoot great in all the different 380 pistols that I have shot them in.
I think if the HB bullet weighs the same as the flat base. has the same nose shape, and is loaded to the same overall length then it takes the same internal space. Just a slightly different shaped space. I load the Berrys 124 grain HB in 9mm and the HB wadcutters in .357. I was hoping the 9mm HB might obturate a bit better in my .357 revolver. I liked both bullets enough to reorder after the first order was used up. I also shoot the flat based 125's in my ,357 and like them too.,
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I agree. The Berry's 9mm shoots very well for me. I think it's a combination of longer bearing surface and better obturation that gives it a bit of accuracy edge over normal FMJ.
Ruger 15151
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Berry's hollow base shoots very well for a plated bullet. Its a combination of the hollow base obturation, longer bearing surface to seal more gasses, and the fact that they have a larger diameter (.356) than a standard 9mm fmj.
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The HB allows the bullet to obturate more at a lower pressure and allows the bullet to have a longer bearing surface. Could result in better accuracy. I just loaded some from Berry’s in 45 acp. Haven’t shot them yet. Gun club is closed due to the virus. I’ll report back when I try them. This is turning into a free ad for Berry’s
Personally I think it's sales hype. Velocity has a direct correlation to pressure, so there would be no advantage to load a hollow based bullet to get lower chamber pressure and keep a specific velocity as the powder charge/pressure would have to be increased to achieve that specific velocity . For over a century jacketed flat based bullets have been sealing the barrel without "extra" obturation (and of course cast lead has been doing that much longer). The plated "hollow" based bullets I've seen are marginally hollow based, more like "dimpled" bases and perhaps they are trying for the "arrow effect" to improve accuracy; more weight forward...
Jes an old guy's thoughts, I obviously don't think much of plated hollow based bullets...
Jes an old guy's thoughts, I obviously don't think much of plated hollow based bullets...
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GHinNH
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I was remiss to not mention what bullet I was asking about.
I reloaded many years ago, and recently got back in that game. I have never really had interest in lead. I tried cast lead .38 special for my GP100 stainless once.... despite keeping the speed down, I had never experienced such lead fouling and general mess. Revolvers are the exception in my safes. Between rifle and pistol, I shoot many thousands, but not tens of thousands a year so jacketed are worth it to me, especially because of feeding.
Despite 9mm being inexpensive, I do have lots of brass, and been looking around at doing that as well. Because of that, I came across the Berry's plated at an attractive price. I saw one mention on youtube and he said because it is longer and gives it more chance to stabilize.
I reloaded many years ago, and recently got back in that game. I have never really had interest in lead. I tried cast lead .38 special for my GP100 stainless once.... despite keeping the speed down, I had never experienced such lead fouling and general mess. Revolvers are the exception in my safes. Between rifle and pistol, I shoot many thousands, but not tens of thousands a year so jacketed are worth it to me, especially because of feeding.
Despite 9mm being inexpensive, I do have lots of brass, and been looking around at doing that as well. Because of that, I came across the Berry's plated at an attractive price. I saw one mention on youtube and he said because it is longer and gives it more chance to stabilize.
1KPerDay
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Same here. And I generally load close to max charges to get reliable function (it’s my experience and opinion that .380 data is often skewed conservative and rarely do “max” charges feel anywhere close to factory. But I don’t have a chronograph or a pressure testing rig).
Berry’s 185 HBRN also makes for very accurate and soft shooting .45ACP loads. No idea if any obturation is actually taking place with these thick plated bullets with thick “heel” areas or not. But they shoot well.
as noted above they are a totally different animal than soft lead HBWC loads with thin skirts.
Berry’s 185 HBRN also makes for very accurate and soft shooting .45ACP loads. No idea if any obturation is actually taking place with these thick plated bullets with thick “heel” areas or not. But they shoot well.
as noted above they are a totally different animal than soft lead HBWC loads with thin skirts.
Ruger 15151
Member
Actually, they are very accurate. The bullets you are describing are "concaved" not hollow. The hollow base allows the bullet to have a bigger skirt while keeping the bullet weight the same. This give it more bearing surface to seal gasses in the case and then more bearing surface to grab the riffling.
As mentioned previously, Berry's 9mm bullets are also .356 which allows them to shoot better in a oversized factory 9mm barrel.
most people don't realize it but the jacketed fmj's for calibers like the 45acp & 9mm are a form of hb bullet. All's 1 has to do is turn a fmj upside down and look at the rebated lead core and the extended lip of the metal jacket at the base of the bullet
Lots of different reasons for a hb bullet. Keith used a hb bullet design to take the weight out of his swc designs to be able to have faster/flatter shooting loads. As others have already stated for accuracy. Consistency comes to mind when I think of hb bullets. Again as others have already stated a hb bullet will work/perform equally well in a tight bbl or an oversized bbl.
Higher velocities along with consistent velocities over a wide range of firearms is another reason for a hb bullet. The fbi ww 38spl load used a hb bullet. Consistent performance shot after shot in a wide range of firearms.
A special order cramer mold that casts a hb swc for the 45acp. This mold was specifically designed for the surplus 1917 45acp pistols. The 1917 pistols were bullet with parts that had hude differences in the diameter of the cylinder throats and bbl.'s. The fmj jacket's skirt that hung down helped with these differences but there was still huge differences in velocities from firearm to firearm with the same lots of ammo.
It wasn't uncommon to have a 1917 revolver with an oversized .457" bbl on it. That bullet mold pictured above could cast a .454" bullet with soft lead. It's hard to get any larger of a bullet in a 45acp case without swaging the bullet down or getting the oversized reloads to fit in the cylinders. These cast hb bullets can be sized to .452", loaded in 45acp cases and be fired in the .457" bbl.'s of the 1917 revolvers and they would expand/seal them with no leading.
A 44spl version of the fbi's 38spl bullet. It's a 210gr hp hb swc
1000+fps from a snubnosed 44spl with a 18,000+psi load. Not only does the hp nose expand, the hb expands.
hp expansion ='s .625"
hb expansion ='s .500"
bullet length ='s .75"
compressed bullet length ='s .500" .
9mm's tend to do better with smaller/narrower hb's. The small case capacity, tapered web and high pressures of the 9mm are hard on traditional hb designs. I made 3 or 4 hb pins testing different designs in a lyman 35870 hb mold. the 35870 was 1st sold in 1900 and was designed for the 38lc. I ended up with a narrow hb pin that extended up to the top of the 2nd drive band and left thick hb walls at the base of the bullet.
Some people like hb bullets, others not so much. Some think they work, others say no. Myself I've had over 30+ different hb molds over the decades for the 9mm/38spl/357/44spl/44mag/45acp. Along with swaging different hb bullets for those same calibers. All's I can say is without a doubt they flat out work enhancing performance and accuracy.
Lots of different reasons for a hb bullet. Keith used a hb bullet design to take the weight out of his swc designs to be able to have faster/flatter shooting loads. As others have already stated for accuracy. Consistency comes to mind when I think of hb bullets. Again as others have already stated a hb bullet will work/perform equally well in a tight bbl or an oversized bbl.
Higher velocities along with consistent velocities over a wide range of firearms is another reason for a hb bullet. The fbi ww 38spl load used a hb bullet. Consistent performance shot after shot in a wide range of firearms.
A special order cramer mold that casts a hb swc for the 45acp. This mold was specifically designed for the surplus 1917 45acp pistols. The 1917 pistols were bullet with parts that had hude differences in the diameter of the cylinder throats and bbl.'s. The fmj jacket's skirt that hung down helped with these differences but there was still huge differences in velocities from firearm to firearm with the same lots of ammo.
It wasn't uncommon to have a 1917 revolver with an oversized .457" bbl on it. That bullet mold pictured above could cast a .454" bullet with soft lead. It's hard to get any larger of a bullet in a 45acp case without swaging the bullet down or getting the oversized reloads to fit in the cylinders. These cast hb bullets can be sized to .452", loaded in 45acp cases and be fired in the .457" bbl.'s of the 1917 revolvers and they would expand/seal them with no leading.
A 44spl version of the fbi's 38spl bullet. It's a 210gr hp hb swc
1000+fps from a snubnosed 44spl with a 18,000+psi load. Not only does the hp nose expand, the hb expands.
hp expansion ='s .625"
hb expansion ='s .500"
bullet length ='s .75"
compressed bullet length ='s .500" .
9mm's tend to do better with smaller/narrower hb's. The small case capacity, tapered web and high pressures of the 9mm are hard on traditional hb designs. I made 3 or 4 hb pins testing different designs in a lyman 35870 hb mold. the 35870 was 1st sold in 1900 and was designed for the 38lc. I ended up with a narrow hb pin that extended up to the top of the 2nd drive band and left thick hb walls at the base of the bullet.
Some people like hb bullets, others not so much. Some think they work, others say no. Myself I've had over 30+ different hb molds over the decades for the 9mm/38spl/357/44spl/44mag/45acp. Along with swaging different hb bullets for those same calibers. All's I can say is without a doubt they flat out work enhancing performance and accuracy.
.308 Norma
Member
Not to change the subject, but using so called "hard cast" commercially cast lead bullets, especially the ones with beveled bases, plus powder charges that "keep the speed down" is often a recipe for "lead fouling and general mess."
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GHinNH
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I appreciate the comments, as it's all starting to come back to me now. However I was wondering about the Berry's plated because I do not recall seeing anything like them.
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Blue68f100
Member
The beauty of the Barry's was the 185gr RNHB has the same exact profile as their 230gr bullet. So once you had your OLA set you could load either without changing your seating die. Te longer skirt on the 185 helps stabilize the bullet due to longer bearing surface.
rfwobbly
Member
Actually, the very first successful rifle bullet, the Minie ball, has been around since ~1860 and was widely used in the War of Northern Aggression.
rfwobbly
Member
I'm thinking it was early 2009. I was a beta tester for Berry and received samples in April 2009. At lest that the date on the photos I took back then.
Just wondering, has there been a real life comparison between plated hollow base/concave based bullets vs the same weight/shape bullet with a flat base published? I'm guessing Berry's would have tested, but published? Side by side with identical firearms (preferably in a Ransom rest or a universal receiver like a test lab might use), with identical brass, primers, and powder charges? I understand and agree with most "well in my gun..." examples but an empirical test/comparison?
I honestly think that it's just about more bearing surface. A lot of light-for-caliber semi-auto pistol bullets will have a pretty thin little ring of full diameter.... most of the length is ogive. This doesn't help with tension (setback avoidance), it doesn't help with concentricity (bullet aligning itself to the case walls so at least it is starting straight when it's fired), it doesn't help with sealing the bore, and it places all the torsional load of the rifling on a smaller patch of plating (which doesn't help with avoiding the plating damage that can cause accuracy problems in plated bullets).
I'm having fair results with Berry's 124 HBFP in my 9mm 1911. Rainier 125 plated RN, Speer 124 TMJ's and any quality JHP shoot better.
There is a little data out there for plated hollow base bullets, Accurate and Vihtavuori IIRC.
Data looks very similar to comparable plated RN bullets.
There is a little data out there for plated hollow base bullets, Accurate and Vihtavuori IIRC.
Data looks very similar to comparable plated RN bullets.
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