Homeowner shot confronting intruder in NH- how could this have been different?

[ClickClickD'oh]

Just because you say it's happened, doesn't mean it's so.

Just because I say what has happened doesn't mean it's so?

What do you think I have said happened that you think didn't/doesn't happen?

. I 100% agree, most people DO NOT have multiple layers of protection, nor have they prepared.

The difference is that you are using this as an excuse to maintain a bad plan as SOP and I'm saying that it is an unacceptable state that people ignore because they have a gun, and incorrectly think that's good enough.

Instead you chose to argue when valid points were brought up, and dismissed them as "fallacy".

Do you know what the he Dunning–Kruger effect is? Because, man... Okay, I give up. You guys win. Don't take steps to harden your house and make it more defensible... You've got a gun. You know what you are doing.

I'm out.

Good luck with that.

 

[old lady new shooter]

See, this is why some of us say that proper home defense is more about planning and hardening then it is. "I have a gun, my home is safe".

Have a house key on a chem light. Tell the dispatcher the key is coming out a window. This will allow the officers to 1) Know which room is occupied by the residents, 2) Allow them to make entry into the house without destroying kicking down a door or sending a dog through a window and 3) maybe extract the residents through the window if it's a ground floor location.. removing your from the danger of being caught up in the goblin rodeo.

Yes, I have in my bedroom a set of keys on a chem stick, for exactly that purpose. If G-d forbid there is an intruder, whatever is gonna happen will happen before police arrive, but if there is a shot intruder on the floor in my bedroom doorway I'm not gonna walk over him.

 

[SSN Vet]

Outcome doesn't seem to bad to me.

Man with a gun breaks into your house... you hear something and go to investigate (thinking it's the dog? the cat? the window was left open?) and fail to don your full SWAT gear.

Homeowner did pretty well if you ask me.
1. he wasn't killed
2. his girl wasn't raped or killed
3. the BG wasn't killed
4. the home owner was not charged
5. the BG is in jail and should be for a good long while
6. the home owner has a grazing bullet wound

Could have been a LOT worse in many ways.

Only better outcome would have been if he saddled up prior to checking on the "damn cat" and then got the BG to drop the weapon.

Drugs are the scourge of our society, and will be until we either toughen up or become like Mexico

 

[RPZ]

Yes, I have in my bedroom a set of keys on a chem stick, for exactly that purpose. If G-d forbid there is an intruder, whatever is gonna happen will happen before police arrive, but if there is a shot intruder on the floor in my bedroom doorway I'm not gonna walk over him.

This is a good idea. It may work if the layout of the property, neighboring properties - exterior structures and walls, etc allow safe egress to the location the keys are going to be tossed. And not all police agencies are the same, not all dispatchers are the same, not all peace officers are the same. Some peace officers may decline if they feel it means exposing themselves to too much risk.

 

[Deaf Smith]

And if it's a drunken friend of the neighbor's teenage son?

Doors are locked. If that 'drunken' friend tries to break down our door.... tough nuts. This is Texas, respect other's homes cause they can't know just who is breaking in.

Look, many years ago (I do mean many) I went up to my friends house and scratched on the screen that covered the window to wake him up quietly. He did come out, with a 12 gauge. He said never ever do that again. I learned the lesson (and I didn't break in his house even, just outside!)

Don't get drunk and break into others houses here in Texas. Ever.

Deaf

 

[old lady new shooter]

Doors are locked. If that 'drunken' friend tries to break down our door.... tough nuts. This is Texas, respect other's homes cause they can't know just who is breaking in.

Look, many years ago (I do mean many) I went up to my friends house and scratched on the screen that covered the window to wake him up quietly. He did come out, with a 12 gauge. He said never ever do that again. I learned the lesson (and I didn't break in his house even, just outside!)

Don't get drunk and break into others houses here in Texas. Ever.

Deaf

The exact scenario happened recently to a family in a part of my neighborhood where the houses were all built by the same developer and so look a lot alike... somebody banging on their door after 2 am... they conversed with him using their Ring Doorbell while keeping a gun aimed at the door where his COM would be if he kicked it in... and when police arrived they determined it was a drunken friend of the neighbors' son. This was during a time period when a warning was posted to our community email that a homeless guy who had just been released from jail was going around the neighborhood trying doors, so it was especially nerve-wracking for them. I think they handled it exactly right... could they have shot him through the door? Sure, but how would they have felt afterwards? (Besides which, in CA castle doctrine only applies if the intruder has broken in (or maybe is in the process, I'm not exactly sure about that part), banging on the door and not even making any threats probably wouldn't be considered justification for use of deadly force.)

As for scratching on your friend's window screen, I don't understand how you thought that was a good idea, you could have just phoned him.

 

[scaatylobo]

I'm familiar with those threads and ideas. If think the problem is this: "If there is a chance that the house has been entered..."

I think you and I may have different understandings of what "a chance" means. I'm talking about the (common) case where an owner/resident is pretty darn sure there's nobody there. Not the cases where they are pretty sure there is someone there.

If I hear intruders downstairs in my house and I'm pretty sure of that, I'm definitely having my wife call the cops while I retrieve my daughter, then waiting at the top of the stairs (around a blind corner for anyone coming up) and announcing that the cops have been called, and the intruders can either leave, wait for the cops downstairs, or come upstairs to die.

SO, your not actually trying to conduct a SUICIDE driven search & destroy mission in your house = I agree !

 

[RPZ]

Shooting people accidentally as "intruders" is not uncommon at all. Often it is a family member or relative. Here just a couple of examples. For more just Google: shot shoot husband by mistake intruder

http://myfox8.com/2017/06/05/woman-allegedly-shot-killed-after-husband-mistakes-her-for-intruder/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...shoots-wife-believing-she-intruder/334621001/

http://www.click2houston.com/news/h...wife-after-believing-intruder-was-inside-home

http://crooksandliars.com/2015/12/cop-wife-and-cadet-husband-fire-27-times

 

[Kleanbore]

Shooting people accidentally as "intruders" is not uncommon at all. Often it is a family member or relative

Yes, that has happened, all too often.

 

[Deaf Smith]

The exact scenario happened recently to a family in a part of my neighborhood where the houses were all built by the same developer and so look a lot alike... somebody banging on their door after 2 am... they conversed with him using their Ring Doorbell while keeping a gun aimed at the door where his COM would be if he kicked it in... and when police arrived they determined it was a drunken friend of the neighbors' son. This was during a time period when a warning was posted to our community email that a homeless guy who had just been released from jail was going around the neighborhood trying doors, so it was especially nerve-wracking for them. I think they handled it exactly right... could they have shot him through the door? Sure, but how would they have felt afterwards? (Besides which, in CA castle doctrine only applies if the intruder has broken in (or maybe is in the process, I'm not exactly sure about that part), banging on the door and not even making any threats probably wouldn't be considered justification for use of deadly force.)

As for scratching on your friend's window screen, I don't understand how you thought that was a good idea, you could have just phoned him.

Well I said, "friend tries to break down our door". As long as they just pound on the door, they can pound as I call the cops. But if they break they get carried out.

Deaf

 

[Kleanbore]

Well I said, "friend tries to break down our door". As long as they just pound on the door, they can pound as I call the cops. But if they break they get carried out.

Your use of deadly force might well be ruled to have been excusable.

But you will have to live with it.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Your use of deadly force might well be ruled to have been excusable.

But you will have to live with it.

Well if you break down my ##!! door at night while I'm telling you go away I dang will be happy to live with it. And being Castle Doctrine state, it will be justified. DON'T GO BUSTING DOWN DOORS IN TEXAS.

Deaf

 

[Kleanbore]

Well if you break down my ##!! door at night while I'm telling you go away I dang will be happy to live with it. And being Castle Doctrine state, it will be justified.

Not so fast! The law says that with the forcible entry, the use of deafly force will be presumed to have been justified.

In this and in all matters of law, presumptions are rebuttable.

Ether a prosecutor or a civil plaintiff might find grist for the mill in some of your postings in the thread.

Or maybe both.

A friend? Did you know who it was? You "dang will be happy to live with it"?

 

[Snyper]

You know, there's a term for when a person attempts to discredit another persons position by relying on absurd extremes that were never meant to be included.

What if the original position was an "absurd extreme"?
Do you call the police over every unexplained noise?

 

[Kleanbore]

Do you call the police over every unexplained noise?

No, of course not, and that has been the subject of very extensive discussion here over the years.

It's not the issue. The issue is whether it is prudent to put oneself into what may be "harm's way" if there is an alternative.

 

[Kleanbore]

Here's one for you.

A noise downstairs. Repetitive.

It was obvious that drawers were being opened and closed, and that papers were being moved around.

Does that sound suspicious? Does it sound worrisome? Yes it did, and two of us were known to be home, and we were both upstairs.

Would it be wise to go and investigate should sounded like an intruder in the house?

Well, at the time, I thought so. So I did.

With my firearm, which I naturally thought gave me powers of invulnerability, I went downstairs.

What I found was the cat, opening and closing the drawer of a desk and rooting around for a catnip toy that was in the desk.

That was in 1963 or 1964. Would I react the same way today? NO! I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now. I now know that my firearm cannot keep me from being shot.

Had the noise continued much longer, I should have called the police. I would rather be an embarrassed fool than a seriously injured one.

 

[RPZ]

Here's one for you.

A noise downstairs. Repetitive.

It was obvious that drawers were being opened and closed, and that papers were being moved around.

Does that sound suspicious? Does it sound worrisome? Yes it did, and two of us were known to be home, and we were both upstairs.

Would it be wise to go and investigate should sounded like an intruder in the house?

Well, at the time, I thought so. So I did.

With my firearm, which I naturally thought gave me powers of invulnerability, I went downstairs.

What I found was the cat, opening and closing the drawer of a desk and rooting around for a catnip toy that was in the desk.

That was in 1963 or 1964. Would I react the same way today? NO! I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now. I now know that my firearm cannot keep me from being shot.

Had the noise continued much longer, I should have called the police. I would rather be an embarrassed fool than a seriously injured one.

On this particular point - the last line, I am in complete agreement. While "wasting" police time is a good thing to avoid, most any PO will tell you after the fact it is not a problem. They get calls that turn out to be "nothing" all the time. It's routine.

 

[Kleanbore]

Here's another, more recent. My wife was confined to a recliner chair downstairs while recuperating from surgery.

I was upstairs at the computer at the end of the day.

She called to me with alarm, saying that someone had come in through the back door.

I went downstairs as quickly as possible , drawing fast and keeping my finger off the trigger.

"One in the pipe", for those who might wonder.

I was met by a blast of wind that had blown the back door open. I had not closed it properly.

Would I do the same thing again? With her downstairs, absolutely!

Had we both been upstairs, I should have been doing some serious listening--while wide awake.

I think it would have been obvious that the cause was the wind--trash cans were flying, the wind was howling, and trees were bending.

Would I have called the police? No.

Would I have gone down to close the door? Yes.

Armed? I always am.

 

[Snyper]

No, of course not, and that has been the subject of very extensive discussion here over the years.

It's not the issue. The issue is whether it is prudent to put oneself into what may be "harm's way" if there is an alternative.

That's what everyone has to decide for themselves, based on all the available information.

 

[9MMare]

Doors are locked. If that 'drunken' friend tries to break down our door.... tough nuts. This is Texas, respect other's homes cause they can't know just who is breaking in.

Not so fast! The law says that with the forcible entry, the use of deafly force will be presumed to have been justified.

In this and in all matters of law, presumptions are rebuttable.

Ether a prosecutor or a civil plaintiff might find grist for the mill in some of your postings in the thread.

Or maybe both.

A friend? Did you know who it was? You "dang will be happy to live with it"?

I live on rural property but my closest neighbor has a deaf teenage daughter. They have parties and bonfires there with kids from her deaf school. Yeah, there has been some drinking, but I have to consider if one of those kids or their parents looking for them (and deaf) come to my place at night, maybe lost. There can also be language barriers.

I'm not using my firearm as a 'disciplinary tool,' as in 'tough nuts you shouldnt have been (drunk, deaf, from another country, etc). Besides the fact that you cant take that bullet back, the legal fees would be horrible even I was found innocent. Not worth it.

If they get thru the door before the police arrive, then things get reconsidered fast.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Not so fast! The law says that with the forcible entry, the use of deafly force will be presumed to have been justified.

In this and in all matters of law, presumptions are rebuttable.

Ether a prosecutor or a civil plaintiff might find grist for the mill in some of your postings in the thread.

Or maybe both.

A friend? Did you know who it was? You "dang will be happy to live with it"?

Read Texas Castle Doctrine law. The police cannot even question you as to if you felt you were in danger. Break in to peoples houses (like I said, 'break down the door') is the fault of the drunk/criminal/stupid/etc... who decides to do that stunt in TEXAS.

Now if you knock, pound, scream, etc. at the door, they cannot SHOOT THROUGH THE DOOR. But if you break it down, good chance it will be the last time you break a door down.

Deaf

 

[RPZ]

I live on rural property but my closest neighbor has a deaf teenage daughter. They have parties and bonfires there with kids from her deaf school. Yeah, there has been some drinking, but I have to consider if one of those kids or their parents looking for them (and deaf) come to my place at night, maybe lost. There can also be language barriers.

I'm not using my firearm as a 'disciplinary tool,' as in 'tough nuts you shouldnt have been (drunk, deaf, from another country, etc). Besides the fact that you cant take that bullet back, the legal fees would be horrible even I was found innocent. Not worth it.

If they get thru the door before the police arrive, then things get reconsidered fast.

You raise another good point. In my law enforcement training it was emphasized that a person may not react to your verbal commands. They could be deaf, not have an understanding of English, could be mentally retarded et al. This should be a consideration on everyone's mind. You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride. You may not consider the ride a big deal, but you still have to sleep at night.

 

[RPZ]

Read Texas Castle Doctrine law. The police cannot even question you as to if you felt you were in danger. Break in to peoples houses (like I said, 'break down the door') is the fault of the drunk/criminal/stupid/etc... who decides to do that stunt in TEXAS.

Now if you knock, pound, scream, etc. at the door, they cannot SHOOT THROUGH THE DOOR. But if you break it down, good chance it will be the last time you break a door down.

Deaf

That is not quite true. It applies that at night, in your home, you have a presumsion of being subject to a deadly threat. It does not apply in the daytime in your home, nor anywhere else at night.

 

[Kleanbore]

Read Texas Castle Doctrine law. The police cannot even question you as to if you felt you were in danger

I have, of course, read it.

What on earth has given you the idea that "the police cannot question you"?

 

[Deaf Smith]

That is not quite true. It applies that at night, in your home, you have a presumsion of being subject to a deadly threat. It does not apply in the daytime in your home, nor anywhere else at night.

The Texas Castle Doctrine has NOTHING to do with the 'night'.

Read the law. Penal Code §9.31 (self-defense), §9.32 (defense of another), §9.41, and §9.42. If any difficulty with that then just read this.

https://www.versustexas.com/criminal/castle-doctrine-texas/

Deaf