bogie
Member
Methinx that some of our leadership is too fixated on "...and blow up a really big building." There's other terrorist activity out there... Look at the successful Md/DC snipers, for instance.
Homerland Sekurity saves us from EXPLODING SCHOOLBUSES..?
- Thread starter Manedwolf
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longrifleman
Member
When I was on the local School Board, we sold one for $250. It was the only bid we got. We are kinda out in the boonies.
This program is a classic example of a bureaucracy looking to justify it's existience. I didn't notice if they were getting a secret de-coder ring to go with the badge.
I think our security folks are spending too many late nights watching old Chuck Norris movies. This is right out of Invasion USA. The one where Chuck and the baddie ended up dueling with rocket launchers.
joab
Member
Have you tried to buy fertilizer in bomb making quantities lately.
What kind of checks did they do on you and what info was passed on the last time you rented a Ryder.
Wouldn't this simply fall under the heading of human intelligence that most have blasted Clinton for scaling back.
What mega expensive equipment have they installed on these buses, I know there isn't a bunch of complaining going on here simply for a few training classes.
Methinks that some of us are too fixated on hating the government because it's the cool thing to do right now
Build that wall. Man the border with NG with BP officers imbeeded with each unit to enforce civil laws so no posse comitatus issues arise. Possie Commitatus shouldn't be a problem anyway because the NG are simply guarding the border, not enforcing internal law, but with BP embedded with each unit, there should be no problem.Old Dog said:
Have ICE get on internal enforcement, hunting down those with expired visas to begin with, deporting any and all violaters.
We have the manpower, money and technology to accomplish these things, we simply lack the political will. Apparantly, votes are more important to these bastiges than is our national security.
Biker
TallPine
Member
Actually, there is nothing wrong with this program in theory: citizens watching out for their own neighborhoods. Of course, when workers at certain flight schools reported suspicious behavior of some of their students a few years back, the FBI declined to investigate 
Anything the feral goobermint gets its mitts on usually gets messed up
Anything the feral goobermint gets its mitts on usually gets messed up
lostone1413
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Most if not all you read about the terrorist is just what the government wants you to believe. They are just getting ready to set the stage for the next war in the mid east. The true terrorist are held up in DC. They are the ones who are destroying the Republic. Over a million a year just walk into the country. The BP Agents get shot at more times the the press will ever let you know. The Mexican Army has crossed over the borders over 200X. The government even admits this. How can anyone believe anything the government tells you? The war in Iraq is over the oil fields. The government and the Elite needed 911 to try and justify their actions. Don't bet someone living in a cave 12,000 miles away planned 911 with no help. You think the government is above something like that? Better read the true history of what the leaders and Elite have pulled of many times before
joab
Member
So other than you hatred of Bush, or "King George" as you call him, what is the problem with school bus drivers watching out for things that could endanger the children that have been put in the care?
griz
Member
I live in the area, this is local news to me. Here is another little tidbit. Just a week or so before this training, a school got phone call that a bomb was on a school bus. They of course checked every bus and there was no bomb. Turned out to be some nut job. But it is still foolish to ignore this potential threat. Training drivers sounds like the cheapest and most effective way to reduce the risks.
Lucky
Member
Maybe, and it's probably just me, but I think maybe 'watching out' is a good thing when it's done by concerned citizens, and a bad thing when it's done by agents of the state.
First of all, the state ought to have to prove a need for it's program, and it also should have to proove a failure in the current system of bus-driver's reporting suspicious activity, and then the state ought to also prove that they have the ability to do it better than the bus-drivers. Seems like all 3 requirements ought to be met.
Otherwise the whole deal is too similar to, well, Cuba and East Germany.
First of all, the state ought to have to prove a need for it's program, and it also should have to proove a failure in the current system of bus-driver's reporting suspicious activity, and then the state ought to also prove that they have the ability to do it better than the bus-drivers. Seems like all 3 requirements ought to be met.
Otherwise the whole deal is too similar to, well, Cuba and East Germany.
joab
Member
You mean how they had to prove asystem failure with 9-11.
OK one of us didn't read or comprehend the article
lostone1413
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joab said:
My hatred of King Geroge is because of my belief in the constitution. Guess you will tell me all he has done is inline with the constitution All the government is putting out is to get you ready for another war.
I]t is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
— Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering (at the Neuremburg Trials following WWII)
Camp David
member
lostone1413 said:
Not to begrudge your opinion lostone1413 but you avoided joab's question! Let me repost it:
"...what is the problem with school bus drivers watching out for things that could endanger the children that have been put in the care?"
joab
Member
And that has exactly what to do with teaching school bus drivers to recognize dangers to the children that they have been charged with ?
I get it you hate Bush, don't repeat yourself answer my question
Crosshair
Member
The thing that people need to realise that we are never going to have 100% security. Someone, somewhere is going to do something really crazy. We need to fix the big things first before we start screwing around with these little things. Like secure the borders, improve communication between departments, better intelegence, fighting police corruption, etc. This little stuff MIGHT save someone someday, but we need to do a cost/benefit analysis and see how much good it is going to do. As much as some beople do not want to do so, we have to put a $ ammount on a human life to determine what would be the best thing to do.
Old Dog
Member
So which side are you arguing?
Au contraire; you fix what you can, when you can. Sometimes the little things are easier -- and cheaper -- to fix first.
Now, that's spoken like a true bureaucrat. A cost-benefit analyis? Not when it comes to protection of this country's assets and its children.
Precisely why things do NOT get done in this country; too much fixation on monetary cost.
Lostone1413 appears to be tryin' real hard to link the administration's policies with those of Hitler's Third Reich. Sorry, in this case, it just doesn't fly.
BigRobT
Member
The one thing I didn't see ANYBODY address, and if I missed it, please excuse me for being redundant, but with the number of middle easterners already here and the number of them being potential terrorists, the US probably has terrorist cells here, lying in wait. Granted, this is basically a band-aid on a sucking chest wound, but the possibility DOES exist. I don't think it's a bad idea to train people to be aware of potential threats. Heck, I recall, that in San Diego, gate checks were performed routinely with mirrors, dogs, and the like to check vehicles for bombs, etc. It was done more often after 1991.
Personally, I, too, would like to see better border control. Both North AND South. Canada has been all to friendly to those that would want to harm us and the Northern border is just as problematic as the Southern border. Granted, we don't have MS13 on the Northern border, but that border is as easy, if not easier to cross. There have been numerous reports of terrorist cells that are well established in Canada. Just do a quick Google & it's quite obvious.
Personally, I, too, would like to see better border control. Both North AND South. Canada has been all to friendly to those that would want to harm us and the Northern border is just as problematic as the Southern border. Granted, we don't have MS13 on the Northern border, but that border is as easy, if not easier to cross. There have been numerous reports of terrorist cells that are well established in Canada. Just do a quick Google & it's quite obvious.
Manedwolf
member
Crosshair said:
A family friend who is a firefighter was overjoyed when I showed them a surplus catalog that had new fuel-fire aluminumized hood/helmet visors cheap.
Due to budget cuts, repeated budget cuts on a state and federal level, they couldn't afford much new equipment at all, and couldn't afford to buy a replacement for the ones they had that had the visors going bad...until they could find them via private secondhand surplus like that.
Tell me how diverting funds AWAY from first responders and instead to "secret decoder ring" schemes like this is making us safer?
Anyone know of local fire departments that have been fully equipped with state-of-the-art NBC suits and extensive containment gear and been given training? Anywhere?
How about unified, high-tech communications systems standardized from department to department, chief's tablet PCs loaded with structural diagrams of all regional buildings that could be hit by something, all of that?
Why not?
GTSteve03
Member
How can anyone be against this? Remember... (wait for it) ...Old Dog said:
IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN!!1!11!one!1!!
Old Dog
Member
Yep, that's a worthwhile addition to this thread, all right, GTSteve03. Probably easier to make a sarcastic remark than to weigh in with some actual thought on the topic.
Yeah, on the first page I posted
Yes, IMHO some AQ cells are here. Tightening the border (which I agree needs to be done ) is not going to help with those already here plus to the best of my knowledge no nation has ever had border security that was 100% effective.
The question is not about border security.
The question is could having extra eyes watching either reduce the probabillity of a schoold takeover by terrrorists OR (again IMHO ) more likely help reduce the death toll when a shool is attacked.
Again I hope I am wrong
NukemJim
ingram
Member
They just want to avoid a Dirty Harry like senario.
Clint eastwood isn't going to be there to jump onto the bus and save your kids. I support this idea 100%.
Oh wait.
I don't really.
Bus drivers are paid to take kids to school and back home. The fact that this idea is proposed says a lot about the failure of those whose responsibility is to prevent and combat terrorism.
But then again, an alert bus driver is not going to be a bad thing. We just don't need to alert every stinking terrorist out there that these drivers are gonna be looking for certain signs. If I was a terrorist, I would just be more cautious in my surveillance and hijacking, knowing this.
Clint eastwood isn't going to be there to jump onto the bus and save your kids. I support this idea 100%.
Oh wait.
I don't really.
Bus drivers are paid to take kids to school and back home. The fact that this idea is proposed says a lot about the failure of those whose responsibility is to prevent and combat terrorism.
But then again, an alert bus driver is not going to be a bad thing. We just don't need to alert every stinking terrorist out there that these drivers are gonna be looking for certain signs. If I was a terrorist, I would just be more cautious in my surveillance and hijacking, knowing this.
joab
Member
Who's responsibility is it to protect us from bad men.?
This reminds me of the question from my army promotion board
Who is reaponsible for the motivation of subordinates?
A surprising number of candidates could not even guess the answer.
I suspect that if I asked my first question anywhere else but here an equal percentage would get that answer wrong
Lucky
Member
joab said:
Maybe, I don't know. But I do believe that too many gov't programs are created when they aren't needed. Capitalism works on greed, and greed leads to improvement growth production. Bureaucracies also have greedy people, but they don't produce, they leech, they reproduce like viruses. They might be necessary evils, sometimes, but it should be as seldom as possible. I do respect your opinion, though, so I'll try to elaborate what I'm thinking.
So if bus drivers are already doing this, already driving around, already knowing the neighbourhoods, and already noticing suspicious people, and already reporting them - I have to ask - what is the point of creating a federal, centrally-controlled, bureaucratic framework to house this new system?
My understanding was that concerned citizens did report suspicious persons involved in 9/11. That part of the system did work. The ordinary person's ability to notice suspicious people, and report it was proved. Heck, even that actor reported stuff long before most anyone else imagined it. Aiui, just my understanding, aiui all the failures took place when the concerned individual's information reached the federal centrally-controlled bureaucracies. Even after the attacks dead terrorists had their visa applications renewed, by the bureaucracies.
So, the way I see it, the system ain't broke. Bus drivers have had to look out for threats to the children for a long time, it's not new. Centrally controlled bureaucracies have been failing to succeed at the simplest tasks for the longest time, this is not new either.
If you ask me, putting something under federal central-control is the surest way to make sure it will be done very badly. Your kids are actually less safe, now that a bureaucracy is looking after them.
But what do I know, I live in a different country and I walked to school
joab
Member
The reason that the system fail in 01 was because there was no central command to process the bits of info.
Bus drivers may be observing but is there uniformity. Do they know what to look for? Who do they report to if they do know what to look for.
If one driver reports incidents to his supervisor on the east side and one makes a report on the west side of a similar incident who at this time is in place to put the two incidents together to establish a pattern?
This program uses two existing groups of people and teaches them to cooperate.
Lack of cooperation is what is generally blamed for the events of 9/11
Bus drivers may be observing but is there uniformity. Do they know what to look for? Who do they report to if they do know what to look for.
If one driver reports incidents to his supervisor on the east side and one makes a report on the west side of a similar incident who at this time is in place to put the two incidents together to establish a pattern?
This program uses two existing groups of people and teaches them to cooperate.
Lack of cooperation is what is generally blamed for the events of 9/11
original by joab: Have you tried to buy fertilizer in bomb making quantities lately.
What kind of checks did they do on you
Hunting clubs and reserves all over the south buy quantities of fertilizer large enough to make several bombs, every spring. Just give the farmers supply the money and haul it off in their spreader.
What kind of checks did they do on you
Hunting clubs and reserves all over the south buy quantities of fertilizer large enough to make several bombs, every spring. Just give the farmers supply the money and haul it off in their spreader.
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