How are Police Positives?

[Kookla]

Saw one the other day and handled it. Was in good condition, little wear, locked up solidly. Was in 38 New Police. Price was a little over 400. Seemed like a nice little gun. Is there anything about them folks here could share a out them? Thanks.

 

[bikerdoc]

Good solid weapon.Wife has her dads in a display case.
Everything you need to know below!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Police_Positive

 

[Walkalong]

Too small for my hands and beat up my knuckles, cool little guns, had one in .38 S&W for a short time.

 

[Fyrstyk]

A solid gun. I keep mine in a desk top drawer. Don't sell the 38 S&W/38 Colt New Police short. At close range they are more than adequate to defend ones self.

 

[Monac]

Colt's were always very well made guns. The Police Positives were a nice size, being six-shot guns a little smaller than a Smith & Wesson Military & Police / K-frame.

I don't mean to offend you by telling you things you already know, but "38 Colt New Police" was Colt's name for a cartridge called "38 Smith & Wesson", which was immensely popular from about 1870 to about 1920, began to decline gradually to about 1950, and then declined a lot faster. It is a shorter cartridge than 38 Special, and they are not interchangeable in any way, despite the fact that Smith & Wesson also developed 38 Special. (It's a long story.)

I don't know when Colt stopped making revolvers in 38 S&W / New Police, but I think it was a pretty long time ago, maybe by 1950. That means the grips and sights on this gun are not up to modern standards, but if you have good eyes, it can still be an excellent shooter. Because Colts were usually very popular guns, aftermarket grips for your gun may be available on the internet. Ebay is a good place to start.

38 S&W is reasonably powerful, but since it has not been really popular since 1950 modern defensive bullets that are designed to expand on impact are NOT available for it (except maybe from specialty handloaders). I do not want to get into a whole discussion of stopping power here (see a thread called "38 Special Infamy" for that) but suffice it to say that expanding pistol bullets were developed because policemen felt that plain, non-expanding bullets, such as those 38 S&W is loaded with, were not getting the job done. Such bullets kill people just fine, but they often seem to lack the shock effect needed to get people to stop fighting back.

Other people may remark on the difficulty of getting parts for such an old gun, but that is mainly an issue if you shoot the gun a lot. Colts are very durable.

A bigger issue can be gunsmithing, if the gun is worn and needs adjustment. I don't think there are a lot of people left who work on old Colts revolvers.

I don't know what values are these days. People ask more than $400 for some very common revolvers if they are old and in good condition. A lot depends on the gun having the original finish and not being reblued.

 

[Kleanbore]

Don't sell the 38 S&W/38 Colt New Police short. At close range they are more than adequate to defend ones self.

Do you have a basis for that?

Do you know how they compare with the.38 Special in terms of penetration?

Do you know the range at which Rex Applegates' almost unfortunate encounter in Mexico, which led to the development of the Centennial in .38 Special, occurred?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I like them. These are actually Colt Police Positive Specials. Except for the one on the right, which is a 22 Rimfire Police Positive Target. The one in the center is chambered for 32-20, the other three are 38 Specials.






In 1905 Colt patented the Positive Lock, which featured an internal hammer block that prevented the hammer from falling all the way unless the hammer had first been drawn back to full cock, or the trigger had pulled the hammer back in double action. That's where the name comes from.

The first Positive revolvers were 32 caliber. This photo compares the size of a Smith and Wesson 32 Regulation Police at the top to a Police Positive 32 in the middle and a Pocket Positive at the bottom.






A 'regular' Police Positive is chambered for the 38 Colt New Police cartridge, which is interchangeable with the 38 S&W cartridge.

Not the same as 38 Special! 38 S&W on the left, 38 Special on the right. Besides being longer, the 38 Special bore diameter is slightly smaller than the 38 S&W. .357 vs about .360 if I recall correctly. A Police Positive 38 cylinder is too short to accept a 38 Special. Although some have been reamed out to accept the longer round, so one does need to be careful.






Sorry, I don't have a photo of a 'regular' Police Positive to show you.

Almost the same revolver, with a slightly longer cylinder and frame is the Police Positive Special, like the ones in the top photo. Long enough for the 38 Special cartridge, or a few other cartridges such as 32-20.

The frame of the Police Positive comes about midway between the size of a K frame Smith and Wesson and a J frame Smith and Wesson.

I can't believe I don't have a photo comparing a Police Positive to a K frame Smith and a J frame Smith. Must correct that.

Perhaps as a consolation prize here is a photo of a Police Positive Special at the top, a Colt Detective Special in the middle and a J frame S&W Model 36 Chiefs Special at the bottom. The Colt Detective and Police Positive Special are built on the same frame. Notice they are both six shot 38 Special revolvers. The slightly smaller cylinder and frame of the S&W limits its cylinder to five 38 Special chambers.





Yes, Police Positives have not been made for a long time. They were made from 1905 until 1947. There are probably very few gunsmiths around any more who know how to work on them, unlike S&W revolvers which are a bit simpler to work on.

Some don't like the smaller frame of the Police Positive, compared to a K frame S&W. If it feels comfortable in your hand, then go with it. Just remember to buy 38S&W ammo, not 38 Special.



P.S. This photo will have to do for now. Colt 32-20 Police Positive Special at the top, K frame S&W 32-20 Hand Ejector at the bottom.

 

[Fyrstyk]

Do you have a basis for that?

Do you know how they compare with the.38 Special in terms of penetration?

Do you know the range at which Rex Applegates' almost unfortunate encounter in Mexico, which led to the development of the Centennial in .38 Special, occurred?

I have never done any penetration tests, but a New Police with a 200 grain soft lead bullet at 800 FPS is sure to get anyones attention at defensive ranges of 0-15 feet. Has more punch than a .380 auto.

 

[Offhand McFlan]

My uncle carries one in his coat pocket during those Vermont winters and loves the thing. But I dont think they are +P rated. Anybody know?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

My uncle carries one in his coat pocket during those Vermont winters and loves the thing. But I dont think they are +P rated. Anybody know?

Since the original poster was asking about a Police Positive chambered for 38 Colt New Police or 38 S&W, there is no such thing as a +P load for those cartridges. At least not according to SAAMI. So the question is moot.

Regarding the 38 Special Police Positive Special, Colt stopped making them around 1973. 38 Special +P ammunition was first made in 1972, so I kind of doubt the Police Positive Special was rated for +P ammunition.

Of course, I could be wrong.

 

[kBob]

Driftwood,

In case you did not notice I got my ugly but Nickeled PPS in .32 NP we discussed a couple of years ago to a decent smith and it is working fine. Now to get to reloading for it. Also some work on the bad spots with (don't cringe) fine sand paper and Mother's Mag polish to make it very hard to tell where Nickel ends and bare steel begins.

It is nice to have the little cutie back at work.

-kBob

 

[.455_Hunter]

The .38 S&W out of a 4" barrel has plenty of penetration for soft target use and is definitely no less effective than a pocket 380 with FMJ. The wound volume may not be as high as other expanding rounds, but you will get sufficient depth, which is questionable with some JHPs.

I bought a South American police surplus mid-60's Colt PPS for my girlfriend (now wife) back in 2000. Even with years of use and no finish remaining, it still locks up tight. My only caviat is when you want to shoot DA, pull the trigger- don't stage, release, stage, release, finally staging enough to drop the sear. A female family friend actually got an off-center firing pin hit misfire by doing that.

 

[Kleanbore]

but you will get sufficient depth

What is the penetration?

 

[Offhand McFlan]

Since the original poster was asking about a Police Positive chambered for 38 Colt New Police or 38 S&W, there is no such thing as a +P load for those cartridges. At least not according to SAAMI. So the question is moot.

Regarding the 38 Special Police Positive Special, Colt stopped making them around 1973. 38 Special +P ammunition was first made in 1972, so I kind of doubt the Police Positive Special was rated for +P ammunition.

Of course, I could be wrong.

It was chambered in 38sp for awhile, and the name was extended as "police positive SPECIAL"... but yeah...I already caught that the OP was about .38S&W. Production ended in the 90's and my uncle's is older than that so his is probably not rated +P. Then again, I could also be wrong.

 

[grampster]

Colt Police Positive .38 with a 4in bbl was the revolver I was issued when I got my badge in September of 1964. It was pretty old and most of the bluing was worn away. A couple years later we all were reissued the S&W model 10.

 

[ilbob]

I remember when they were available used at a local gun store as police trade ins for $150, IIRC. 38 spl I think. Most of the ones I looked at had holster wear but otherwise appeared to be in lightly used condition. I seem to recall you could get a holster for it that was also police trade in for like $10.

Mid to late 80s I think.

 

[Kookla]

Thank you for the information everyone, very appreciated. I have xl/xxl hands, but I did like the way it held.

@Monac - no offense taken! Thank you.

@Driftwood Johnson any thread that you start posting pictures of your revolvers is enriched, my thanks to you.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I remember when they were available used at a local gun store as police trade ins for $150, IIRC. 38 spl I think. Most of the ones I looked at had holster wear but otherwise appeared to be in lightly used condition. I seem to recall you could get a holster for it that was also police trade in for like $10.

Howdy Again

I bought this one used in a local shop back around 1975 or so. My notes say it shipped in 1952. It was a long time ago and I don't remember what I paid for it, probably in the neighborhood of $150 or so. This one is a Police Positive Special, chambered for 38 Special. Somebody must have applied some sort of varnish on the grips, and the blue is a bit faded, but other than that it works fine. Remembering back, I think this was the 4th cartridge revolver I bought, after a Ruger Blackhawk, a S&W Model 19-3 and a S&W Model 17-3.

 

[.455_Hunter]

What is the penetration?

Generally something in the 16 - 18" in 10% ordnance gelatin tissue simulant for 146 gr LRN at 650 - 700 fps.

 

[Monac]

I have had several Police Positives, but mine were all like this one: https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...39-s-personal-collection.cfm?gun_id=101315774

I never bought one with a box or manual, so I just went ahead and shot 38 Special +P in them whenever I felt like it.

The reason I have had several was that the first one was just wonderful to shoot. so of course I sold it.....Yes, I am that stupid. After quite a while I tried to replace it, and it took a few tries to get one that shot to point of aim for me.

I think Colt made these until that big strike they had in the late 70's or early 80's, then they switched to just making all the Diamondbacks they could, because they could charge a lot more for a Diamondback.

BTW, these "Police Positive 4th Issues" are my candidate for best looking revolver ever. They are stamped "Police Positive 38 Special", not "Police Positive Special."

I think I also had a nickel plated Police Positive in "32 Colt New Police" on the "38 Colt New Police" frame, but that was so long ago I could be wrong.

 

[silvermane_1]

Since the original poster was asking about a Police Positive chambered for 38 Colt New Police or 38 S&W, there is no such thing as a +P load for those cartridges. At least not according to SAAMI. So the question is moot.

Regarding the 38 Special Police Positive Special, Colt stopped making them around 1973. 38 Special +P ammunition was first made in 1972, so I kind of doubt the Police Positive Special was rated for +P ammunition.

Of course, I could be wrong.

I always like the police positive 38 special model, and you maybe correct about them not being +P rated there Driftwood.

 

[GBExpat]

Too small for my hands and beat up my knuckles, cool little guns, had one in .38 S&W for a short time.

Kookla, I have two in .32-20 (5" bbls mfd 1912 & 1924) and the above mirrors my experience. For reference I wear size L/G gloves (long, thin fingers).

I blame the shape of the slightly-bent-forward grip for the knuckle-knocking issue and, every time I fire them, I am happy that they are chambered for .32WCF and not .38spl ... or larger.

Nice little revolvers though. Mine are reliable and very accurate. I still like shooting them despite the minor knuckle abuse. I almost always don a thin leather patrol glove if I plan on shooting a lot of rounds thru one or both of them.

The two, upper left & left center:

 

[Jim Watson]

I kind of doubt the Police Positive Special was rated for +P ammunition.

Not by that name, but Colt "rated" the PPS for any form of .38 Special, including .38-44 HV which is hotter than any +P. Of course in those days, a box of ammo was a long term supply, unless you were a target shooter and used a lot of wadcutters.

I have never done any penetration tests, but a New Police with a 200 grain soft lead bullet at 800 FPS is sure to get anyones attention at defensive ranges of 0-15 feet.

No doubt, but a .38 NP Super Police was doing good to make 650 fps.

"38 Colt New Police" was Colt's name for a cartridge called "38 Smith & Wesson"

But the Colt cartridge(s) had the deadly flat nosed bullet which Hatcher himself said increased "stopping power" by 5%.

 

[shoebox1.1]

Driftwood’s Safe(s) must be large and heavy. Inside and out!! Absolute treat to share his collection visually with us. Thx

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Too small for my hands and beat up my knuckles, cool little guns, had one in .38 S&W for a short time.

A Tyler T-Grip will solve that problem, neatly and cheaply -- that's what I have on my Colt Detective Special.