How big did swords get?

[zahc]

I like to play console RPG's. Many of them are done in a medieval-like time frame/atmosphere, and there are often swords. The swords are often big. Sometimes very big. They are drawn big because everything is exagerated in videogames usually *cough*lara croft.


It got me wondering how big swords really got, like swords in the past actually used in battle. Not this big. How long and wide and heavy. And how they were made if they were actually sharp.

 

[CWL]

2-handers were specialists' weapons in Europe. Mostly for guard units, special assault squads and for officers.

They got this big:

http://www.landsknecht.com/html/2001_group_03.html


While all Japanese swords were 2-handers, they did have very large swords used for combat in the earlier Samuari periods and which petered out by the 16th Cent with the introduction of large formed units.

In China and other parts of Asia, 2-handers looked more like European falchion swords and had very long hilts. Some societies used them for war, but many reserved them strictly for executions.

 

[zahc]

cool

 

[El Tejon]

zahc, to give you the tilecrawler answer, it depends.

It depends on where one draws the line between pole arm and sword. In my style of boxing, we use the Gou Lian Dao, the hook sickle saber, which is a dao (saber/broadsword) mounted on a staff with a spear tip on the other end.

Some styles of Muslim boxing feature very large oversized daos. Southern styles, such as Choy Li Fut, feature large and heavy 9 ring daos (they would put iron rings on the back of the blade to increase the weight).

A few books I recommend:

The Art of Chinese Swordsmanship, Zhang Yun (Taiji style);
Ancient Chinese Weapons, Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming (excellent book);
Northern Shaolin Sword, Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming (Long Fist Boxing style).

You should be able to find these at B&N or Border's. You can order them from Dr. Yang's website if you cannot find them where you are.

CWL will have to cover Japan. I have no idea about Japan.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

One sword that has survived is the sword King Edward V bought for his bodyguard and is displayed in the Tower of London Armouries. It is double-edged and 89" (7.4 feet) long.

 

[zahc]

7.4 Feet long? Whoa. That's big. I wonder it was actually to be weilded as a weapon. It's take a big dude to swing a 7+ foot long sword.

 

[CWL]

European 2-handers weren't the sharpest of weapons. They depended as much on weight as they did on cutting ability. Typically, the bottom 1/3 wasn't even sharpened -this was so that the wielder could get a grip above the guard for better controlability/balance when swinging and thrusting.

2-handers were used the same as polearms, which was like a heavy ax and sometimes spear. They need lots of room to swing and did need big men to use effectively. But since they were specialist's /officer's weapons -these were typically big men. German mercenaries who carried them were called 'doppelsoldner' -double-pay soldiers. They were expected to crash into opposing units first and break-up their formations for the regular soldiers to follow-up & exploit.

There is much training & finesse in wielding these weapons, so it isn't just brute force. Typical moves would be overhead circular movements as well as figure-8 side to side moves. But they have their own manual of arms similiar to Japanese 'kata'. I have seen Romanian 2-handers duel before in 3/4 plate. I was quite impressed at how fluid they moved as well as their skills in being able to reverse swings, and switch to thrusts or smashing moves without any slowing of momentum.

 

[seeker_two]

There was a show on the History Channel (or was it History International?.. ) about the development of swords, axes, and other blades. They went into great detail on how the larger medeval swords were used in combat.

Watching the reenactors using hand-and-a-half swords, the moves looked more like quarterstaff attacks than "traditional" swordfighting. Very interesting...

I also remember seeing a sword made for hunting boar from horseback. I think it was almost 5ft. long & was almost spear-like. Not a practical combat weapon...

 

[Skofnung]

From what I have read, (and I have read alot on this subject)there were few, if any swords of a greater weight than 8 pounds used in actual warfare in Europe (I can not speak for Asia). That is not to say that there were not exceptions to this, but as a general rule, anything heavier than 8 pounds is a "bearing sword." That 7 footer in the Tower was almost certainly a bearing sword. They were carried in processions for their visual impact.

Could a bearing sword be employed as a weapon? Sure, but the adversary had better be either immobile or inept.

CWL is right on about the use of 2 handers as polearms, and the doppelsoldner. They were burly men indeed.

Seeker_two, I too have seen the use of the hand & half portrayed on the History channel. The moves they were using come directly from illustrated woodcuts of contemporary (15-16 century) schools of fence. The moves would have been used, but only in very limited circumstances, by a very few people. The moves are just too complex for field use. Were they used, certainly. Were they used often, I tend to think not. Makes for good TV though.

I am of the opinion (and we all know about opinions...) that they would have been used just like a regular sword to slash unarmored or lightly armored opponents and to stab heavily armored ones. I draw this opinion from contemporary illustrations of battles and from written accounts of duels, as well as a little practical trial and error.

All of this can be taken for what it is, I do not claim to be an expert, this is just a hobby of mine. One of many...

Regards

 

[The-Distinctive-Edge]

neat! Paul

 

[Gordon Fink]

Typically, single-hand swords (sometimes called short swords) weighed in between two and three pounds. Hand-and-a-half swords (bastard swords and other long swords) weighed around two and a half to four pounds. Great-swords and Renaissance two-handers weighed about five or six pounds at the heaviest. Any bigger than that, you get into the realm of ceremonial “bearing†swords, as described by Skofnung.

~G. Fink

 

[Sunray]

"King Edward V bought for his bodyguard and is displayed in the Tower of London Armouries. It is double-edged and 89" (7.4 feet) long." That's definitely a 'bearing sword' and was used for ceremonial occasions only. Still is sometimes. Not that one though. It was not for HRM's "bodyguards" to use as a weapon. I've seen it up close and it certainly is a big bugger, but not made for fighting.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I remember reading somewhere that they did use bearing swords for executions. Seems the added weight made up for a dull blade or thick neck.