How does your club deal with negligent gun handling?
- Status
oneounceload
member
Maybe I am the only one who sees it this way -
One quote we all like to spew at the antis is from Ben about folks who would give up freedom for safety deserving neither and yet in this thread everyone is talking about doing just that - taking away the freedom of another for their own security.
Now, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate for a second, but the irony looms large - at least to me. Maybe, that is why those antis argue for gun confiscation - it will make them feel safer when you lose your freedom......
Just sayin'...............
One quote we all like to spew at the antis is from Ben about folks who would give up freedom for safety deserving neither and yet in this thread everyone is talking about doing just that - taking away the freedom of another for their own security.
Now, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate for a second, but the irony looms large - at least to me. Maybe, that is why those antis argue for gun confiscation - it will make them feel safer when you lose your freedom......
Just sayin'...............
Schwing
Member
I think how these situations are handled can be critical to retaining new and inexperienced shooters.
I am not in any way advocating complacence but when new shooters are confronted aggressively and harshly for something unsafe, it is entirely possible that they won't come back to the range. I see shooters regularly get far too aggressive and judgmental when they see something they don't like.
Just this last summer, I was at our local outdoor range a few stalls down from a guy and his 10 or so year old son. His .22 had jammed and he was sweeping the entire firing line with the barrel trying to dislodge it. I politely approached and reminded him that shooters get a mite twitchy when other shooters point the barrel in their direction.
He was extremely apologetic and felt embarrassed enough that he won't soon forget but the extra few minutes I spent with him getting his rifle unjammed and just talking turned it into a positive experience for both of us. He had never been shooting before and had purchased the rifle to spend more time with his boy.
I can't help but think that if they had been dealt with harshly and then kicked out, that would probably steer the dad towards dropping the idea and it certainly would have been remembered by the boy.
It is entirely possible to deal with these incidents without being bullish or aggressive.
I am not in any way advocating complacence but when new shooters are confronted aggressively and harshly for something unsafe, it is entirely possible that they won't come back to the range. I see shooters regularly get far too aggressive and judgmental when they see something they don't like.
Just this last summer, I was at our local outdoor range a few stalls down from a guy and his 10 or so year old son. His .22 had jammed and he was sweeping the entire firing line with the barrel trying to dislodge it. I politely approached and reminded him that shooters get a mite twitchy when other shooters point the barrel in their direction.
He was extremely apologetic and felt embarrassed enough that he won't soon forget but the extra few minutes I spent with him getting his rifle unjammed and just talking turned it into a positive experience for both of us. He had never been shooting before and had purchased the rifle to spend more time with his boy.
I can't help but think that if they had been dealt with harshly and then kicked out, that would probably steer the dad towards dropping the idea and it certainly would have been remembered by the boy.
It is entirely possible to deal with these incidents without being bullish or aggressive.
oneounceload
member
EXACTLY, we were all new at this at one time.
Deanimator
Member
The last one I belonged to was big on both supervision and shooter education. If somebody appears to be having difficulty, somebody will always assist them.
If you REFUSE to obey the rules and conduct yourself in a safe manner, you're told to leave.
There was once a doctor who came stinking drunk one night. After he dropped his firearm and a range officer smelled liquor on his breath, he was disarmed, put in a cab and sent home. An emergency board of directors meeting was held that night. His membership was terminated and his dues refunded. Not too much later, local news reported a doctor who was arrested because he was found passed out on the side of the road in his car, armed, WITHOUT an Ohio Concealed Handgun License. Guess who?
If you REFUSE to obey the rules and conduct yourself in a safe manner, you're told to leave.
There was once a doctor who came stinking drunk one night. After he dropped his firearm and a range officer smelled liquor on his breath, he was disarmed, put in a cab and sent home. An emergency board of directors meeting was held that night. His membership was terminated and his dues refunded. Not too much later, local news reported a doctor who was arrested because he was found passed out on the side of the road in his car, armed, WITHOUT an Ohio Concealed Handgun License. Guess who?
Great responses. The older fellows mentioned in my OP were seasoned shooters. I'm more tolerant of new shooters, but it seems the violations are more often by long-time shooters. Many of them were totally unaware they did it, some to the point of outright denial. It amazed me that the fellow he pointed it at in the latest incident did not notice it-he was standing about a foot and a half to his left. We allow non-league shooters to fill in on the line when we have Bullseye or postal matches. Unfortunately, their has been some rare dangerous gun handling then as well (never by the league shooters, thankfully). This tends to raise my blood pressure and distract me, neither of which is good for scores. I'd be most inclined to remove the shooter from the line in that instance.
it's a shame the basic gun handling skills are not generally taught to new shooters. all shooters should know why these skills are necessary (to prevent the shooter from killing or injuring someone or themselves), and be shown how to properly handle a firearm. posting "safety rules" does nothing to prevent accidents. teaching shooters to understand "why" and showing them "how" prevents accidents.
murf
murf
chipcom
member
Last summer I had a couple of young gentlemen show up and start shooting while I was downrange hanging my target. I'm not the most patient, diplomatic feller in the world, but in this case, me still being on the business end of their muzzles, I managed to correct the situation with firm, LOUD, but polite words and some good humor...at least for the shooters. The alleged RSO didn't get off so lucky.
chipcom
member
Well at least speaking for myself...anyone I have taught to shoot has been taught well...but even then I can't follow them around over the course of their lives and ensure they remember and practice what they are taught.
The problem, I believe, is that many first time shooters or inexperienced shooters can't bring themselves to admit that they are new or inexperienced and ask for instruction. Rather they read the rules posted, if any, and attempt to emulate what they've seen on TV (shudder)...and it doesn't become apparent to anyone that they don't know what they are doing until they do something to endanger...or worse...others. I've seen it so many times...especially with young men who's egos have a hard time letting anyone know that they aren't already highly trained rambos that know everything there is to know about shooting, hunting, fishing, etc. That's why I have always preferred teaching women to shoot...they seem to have an easier time admitting that they don't know what they don't know, ya know? They tend to smell nicer and are easier on the eyes too.
chipcom,
teaching people to shoot is tough because not all students learn. if a student wants to learn how and why to always keep the finger off the trigger, great. not much you can do about the ones that don't want to learn.
the problem with "rules" is they start and stop at the range and don't follow the shooter home. teaching can follow them home.
murf
teaching people to shoot is tough because not all students learn. if a student wants to learn how and why to always keep the finger off the trigger, great. not much you can do about the ones that don't want to learn.
the problem with "rules" is they start and stop at the range and don't follow the shooter home. teaching can follow them home.
murf
jim in Anchorage
Member
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2009
- Messages
- 2,849
Rabbit Creek? Doesn't sound like Birchwood.
Obviously two approaches to the issue - first, extremely negative with a heaping dose of embarrassment regardless of the skill level of the shooter. Second, quiet reinforcement of the 4 rules and some assistance with any issue that created it.
Which gun range is getting new members and growing? They are out there and beating offenders with a bat, being a drama queen, or throwing out a member for 1 single infraction committed in years of shooting seems to be the norm.
Regardless - there will ALWAYS be another new shooter tomorrow. And they will NOT have the habits or practices adopted yet. Any older shooter can and will make a mistake - we're not capable of being Condition Red every moment we are on the line. It's humanly impossible.
We have the four rules that all work together, but when one is inadvertently forgotten, the other three help cover the gap in safety. By no means am I suggesting we deviate one bit from having the safest conduct possible - but it takes education and practice to get to that point.
Case in hand, I'm hunting this season with a 10.5" barreled AR pistol. Huge difference in handling and safety compared to a 16" carbine. It's extremely easy to muzzle yourself, your hunting partner, etc. No different than walking with a handgun ready to go while stalking game. It's taking a lot more attention and effort to watch those little slipups because they are magnified by a barrel that no longer reaches just past the thigh muzzle down - it can readily point directly at it. And I've handled the AR in service and on my own, plus plenty of other rifles, for over 40 years.
If you never have hunted with one, you'd muzzle yourself in the first 15 minutes guaranteed. Using the strict rules some have mentioned, you'd lose your gun club membership on the spot. Is that what you really intend to do as a standard of club conduct? If so, I'd like to suggest you either quit now, or vote to sell the club to others with a more responsible approach than exercising discipline with bats and beratings. You are not growing the sport, you are just acting as your poorly trained fathers did. Being a drama queen about it doesn't actually do much other than drive students away from you who could learn a lot more. It only demonstrates a complete inability to teach or help.
You cannot expect 100% positive compliance with the gun safety rules from the moment someone opens the box on their first new gun - any more than you can insist your own children keep the car between the white lines every second they are behind the wheel. And the reason is YOU DIDN'T do it either.
By all means, remain vigilant and exercise caution. But if you are the type who can't handle the normal human behavior of learning new skills, then stick to birds of your feather where you won't be a negative dumpster on new students. You only add to the hate and discontent we have in the world already. Sorry that is all you ever got as an example in your life - but it doesn't make it the gold standard, either.
You practice until you can't do it wrong - never forget that we lose one highly trained professional military shooter every year from live fire while training. They accept the risk to protect you and our country, the ugly reality is nobody's perfect, even them.
Which gun range is getting new members and growing? They are out there and beating offenders with a bat, being a drama queen, or throwing out a member for 1 single infraction committed in years of shooting seems to be the norm.
Regardless - there will ALWAYS be another new shooter tomorrow. And they will NOT have the habits or practices adopted yet. Any older shooter can and will make a mistake - we're not capable of being Condition Red every moment we are on the line. It's humanly impossible.
We have the four rules that all work together, but when one is inadvertently forgotten, the other three help cover the gap in safety. By no means am I suggesting we deviate one bit from having the safest conduct possible - but it takes education and practice to get to that point.
Case in hand, I'm hunting this season with a 10.5" barreled AR pistol. Huge difference in handling and safety compared to a 16" carbine. It's extremely easy to muzzle yourself, your hunting partner, etc. No different than walking with a handgun ready to go while stalking game. It's taking a lot more attention and effort to watch those little slipups because they are magnified by a barrel that no longer reaches just past the thigh muzzle down - it can readily point directly at it. And I've handled the AR in service and on my own, plus plenty of other rifles, for over 40 years.
If you never have hunted with one, you'd muzzle yourself in the first 15 minutes guaranteed. Using the strict rules some have mentioned, you'd lose your gun club membership on the spot. Is that what you really intend to do as a standard of club conduct? If so, I'd like to suggest you either quit now, or vote to sell the club to others with a more responsible approach than exercising discipline with bats and beratings. You are not growing the sport, you are just acting as your poorly trained fathers did. Being a drama queen about it doesn't actually do much other than drive students away from you who could learn a lot more. It only demonstrates a complete inability to teach or help.
You cannot expect 100% positive compliance with the gun safety rules from the moment someone opens the box on their first new gun - any more than you can insist your own children keep the car between the white lines every second they are behind the wheel. And the reason is YOU DIDN'T do it either.
By all means, remain vigilant and exercise caution. But if you are the type who can't handle the normal human behavior of learning new skills, then stick to birds of your feather where you won't be a negative dumpster on new students. You only add to the hate and discontent we have in the world already. Sorry that is all you ever got as an example in your life - but it doesn't make it the gold standard, either.
You practice until you can't do it wrong - never forget that we lose one highly trained professional military shooter every year from live fire while training. They accept the risk to protect you and our country, the ugly reality is nobody's perfect, even them.
slickracer
Member
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2013
- Messages
- 254
I see more negligent gun handling than I care to mention at my club. Thankfully, there is a concrete wall between the 5/10 yard range and the 25 yard range with most folks using the short range. I normally have the 25 yard range to myself but when someone comes over that I don't know well, I watch them like a hawk for a few minutes. I don't understand why it is so difficult to keep the slide open on a semi-auto!
We are extra heightened at my club because on Thanksgiving day one fellow shot his buddy in the leg trying to take down his pistol. Luckily EMS was able to take care of him and he will make a full recovery but it could have been fatal.
We are extra heightened at my club because on Thanksgiving day one fellow shot his buddy in the leg trying to take down his pistol. Luckily EMS was able to take care of him and he will make a full recovery but it could have been fatal.
Evil-Twin
member
No injuries in 77 years
My club has been chartered for 77 years. we now have 5,000 active members. My club has 11 separate ranges. Very specific protocol has been in force for most of the 77 years. When anyone witnesses an unsafe act. anyone can call the line. All the ranges have range officers, but obviously there are times when there is not. Anyone can pull a members card. If the member will not yield, you can get the name from the mandatory range sign in book and also his Member ID. No o0ne purposely goes to the ranges at our club to break rules.
No one wants their membership card punched, which removes their membership permanently. Anyone who fails to yield their member ID to another member , breaks the rules. We all want to know who is shooting at our ranges. No guest are allowed at our club during hunting season, the ranges all have paid range officers to enforce rules, the club has specific hours, and the club access road is locked during off hours. there are always committee members and board member at out clubhouse and restaurant. Our club is very strict, no human silhouette targets, no more than five rounds in any gun. Guns at are club are referred too as fire arms and not weapons. we have many family memberships , and we host both cub scouts and boy scouts, brownies and girl scout training. Our safety track record speaks for itself. Any confrontation at our club is an extreme violation of club rules and subject to removal.
My club has been chartered for 77 years. we now have 5,000 active members. My club has 11 separate ranges. Very specific protocol has been in force for most of the 77 years. When anyone witnesses an unsafe act. anyone can call the line. All the ranges have range officers, but obviously there are times when there is not. Anyone can pull a members card. If the member will not yield, you can get the name from the mandatory range sign in book and also his Member ID. No o0ne purposely goes to the ranges at our club to break rules.
No one wants their membership card punched, which removes their membership permanently. Anyone who fails to yield their member ID to another member , breaks the rules. We all want to know who is shooting at our ranges. No guest are allowed at our club during hunting season, the ranges all have paid range officers to enforce rules, the club has specific hours, and the club access road is locked during off hours. there are always committee members and board member at out clubhouse and restaurant. Our club is very strict, no human silhouette targets, no more than five rounds in any gun. Guns at are club are referred too as fire arms and not weapons. we have many family memberships , and we host both cub scouts and boy scouts, brownies and girl scout training. Our safety track record speaks for itself. Any confrontation at our club is an extreme violation of club rules and subject to removal.
luzyfuerza
Member
No human silhouette targets? No more than five rounds in a gun at a time? No visitors allowed during hunting season? Always referring to guns as firearms instead of weapons?
How exactly do these provisions improve safety (which is the topic of this thread)?
I suppose that your range would not be a bad place for once-a-year hunting rifle sight in. If you had no other choice. Its pretty useless for the kind of shooting that I like to do.
How exactly do these provisions improve safety (which is the topic of this thread)?
I suppose that your range would not be a bad place for once-a-year hunting rifle sight in. If you had no other choice. Its pretty useless for the kind of shooting that I like to do.
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Evil-Twin
member
Our club is a sportmans club
People flock to our club because of its strict rules.. we get 50 new members a week. Its not a tactical shoot um up or anything goes club.. no cowboys or hot dogs.. we do have cowboy shoots, and host many NRA nationally sanctioned matches. While 80 % of our members have a permit to carry license. We do not teach or condone the practice of killing people. WE teach children respect for human life while teaching hunting and fishing skills through fire arms and archery. People spend 200 dollars a year to join our club, and not all who apply get in. 77 Years, no serious injuries. No one has even been shot. 5 round mags are part of safety, and observation. Anyone witnessing someone discharging more than 5 rounds is removed from the line... ( its about following the rules. ) Like I said we get 50 people a week ( only on Sunday, where they have to go through a 2 hour orientation. then local and federal background checks, then a committee vote. process takes about a month to be accepted as a member... when people get into our club, they don't leave... we have many members ( gold members ) with 50 years of consecutive membership. Its certainly not for everyone...But its the nicest club I've ever seen in the country. Ive been a member there for 35 years.
7 enclosed range house with heat and air condition, ranges out to 100 yards. down ranges are outside but range houses ( shooting lines are inside ). each ranges has vending machines, and we have a club house and a restaurant.
Big bore range, Black powder, small bore range, archery range and field course, pistol range, 3 skeet ranges, ( high and low house )----- 3 station trap range, 5 stand, 15 station table trap. air pistol and rifle, Air rifle field couse ( 25 stations 0. Campingfacilities, shot gun pattern range. A Bar-b-que area with covered Pavilion with bar b que grills and picnic benches. I ve posted pictures before...
one of our typical ranges.
Air conditioned range houses at each range
Down range
People flock to our club because of its strict rules.. we get 50 new members a week. Its not a tactical shoot um up or anything goes club.. no cowboys or hot dogs.. we do have cowboy shoots, and host many NRA nationally sanctioned matches. While 80 % of our members have a permit to carry license. We do not teach or condone the practice of killing people. WE teach children respect for human life while teaching hunting and fishing skills through fire arms and archery. People spend 200 dollars a year to join our club, and not all who apply get in. 77 Years, no serious injuries. No one has even been shot. 5 round mags are part of safety, and observation. Anyone witnessing someone discharging more than 5 rounds is removed from the line... ( its about following the rules. ) Like I said we get 50 people a week ( only on Sunday, where they have to go through a 2 hour orientation. then local and federal background checks, then a committee vote. process takes about a month to be accepted as a member... when people get into our club, they don't leave... we have many members ( gold members ) with 50 years of consecutive membership. Its certainly not for everyone...But its the nicest club I've ever seen in the country. Ive been a member there for 35 years.
7 enclosed range house with heat and air condition, ranges out to 100 yards. down ranges are outside but range houses ( shooting lines are inside ). each ranges has vending machines, and we have a club house and a restaurant.
Big bore range, Black powder, small bore range, archery range and field course, pistol range, 3 skeet ranges, ( high and low house )----- 3 station trap range, 5 stand, 15 station table trap. air pistol and rifle, Air rifle field couse ( 25 stations 0. Campingfacilities, shot gun pattern range. A Bar-b-que area with covered Pavilion with bar b que grills and picnic benches. I ve posted pictures before...
one of our typical ranges.
Air conditioned range houses at each range
Down range
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Schwing
Member
That seems kind of rigid to me, without offering any increased safety benefit IMO. My range (it is actually an association) has been in operation since 1918 and was 100% accident free until 2014. We did actually have a serious accident last year because a guy brought his mentally challenged son to the range and he tripped while shooting, fell forward and shot himself in the face with his own gun when he hit the ground. He was very lucky and didn't have any permanent damage from it.People flock to our club because of its strict rules.. we get 50 new members a week. Its not a tactical shoot um up or anything goes club.. no cowboys or hot dogs.. we do have cowboy shoots, and host many NRA nationally sanctioned matches. While 80 % of our members have a permit to carry license. We do not teach or condone the practice of killing people. WE teach children respect for human life while teaching hunting and fishing skills through fire arms and archery. People spend 200 dollars a year to join our club, and not all who apply get in. 77 Years, no serious injuries. No one has even been shot. 5 round mags are part of safety, and observation. Anyone witnessing someone discharging more than 5 rounds is removed from the line... ( its about following the rules. ) Like I said we get 50 people a week ( only on Sunday, where they have to go through a 2 hour orientation. then local and federal background checks, then a committee vote. process takes about a month to be accepted as a member... when people get into our club, they don't leave... we have many members ( gold members ) with 50 years of consecutive membership. Its certainly not for everyone...But its the nicest club I've ever seen in the country. Ive been a member there for 35 years.
7 enclosed range house with heat and air condition, ranges out to 100 yards. down ranges are outside but range houses ( shooting lines are inside ). each ranges has vending machines, and we have a club house and a restaurant.
Big bore range, Black powder, small bore range, archery range and field course, pistol range, 3 skeet ranges, ( high and low house )----- 3 station trap range, 5 stand, 15 station table trap. air pistol and rifle, Air rifle field couse ( 25 stations 0. Campingfacilities, shot gun pattern range. A Bar-b-que area with covered Pavilion with bar b que grills and picnic benches. I ve posted pictures before...
one of our typical ranges.
Air conditioned range houses at each range
Down range
Even though I can't claim the 100% accident free anymore, I don't see how any of your club rules would have prevented that.
There are no restrictions on any LEGALLY owned firearms up to 50 caliber and guests are encouraged year round. The range officers are 100% volunteer with no pay, there are no magazine or target restrictions (except exploding targets) and it costs $60 per year for a family membership.
I have to say though, while I don't understand it, if people keep signing up, it is a good thing. One thing I am really jealous of is the club house and restaurant. Our association is pretty rustic and we are lucky to even have a porta-potty
Evil-Twin
member
A mentally challenged man, woman or boy or girl has no place on a firing line with other people You said the boy tripped while shooting >>>???? how do you trip when you are standing in a firing lane box. the gun is on the bench.... where was his sponsor? While I understand how a mentally challenged boy could cause an accident, it wasn't the boys fault, it was his sponsors fault for not being there with him to make sure something like this didn't happen. the boy could have tripped and killed some innocent member who just came there to shoot in a safe environment.. I can tell you, that boy would have never had the opportunity to cross the safety line at any of our ranges. You are the second person today to question the motives of discipline... No silhouette targets is not a safety issue, it is a statement on practicing to kill people. We don't condone killing people, especially where we have a family environment. Most people know the difference between a weapon and a fire arm. Its only terminology but influence of our junior members is the seeds that keep out club going. We are not teaching kids to shoot at people or shoot at human silhouettes. We set the rule for 5 rounds as a discipline that rapid fire, and unlimited rounds are not permitted... there is lass chances of leaving a round when you only have five to shoot. SAFETY..
.. I'm not defending the motives, its just what is expected, and discipline a strict rules keeps me safe. No one wants to break the rules at our club because they wont get a second chance to come back... when you have 5,000 members, you have to keep things tight... we don't allow guest during hunting season, because too many one day hunters want to blow off two boxes of shells, in 30 minutes or less.. just to hear the bang and pretend to be a hunter. we do allow guest at any other time, but even that is very regulated... sponsor and guest have to sign in on the same range and the sponsor is fully responsible for the guest. cost is ten dollars for one day, one guest, at any range. The culture of our club has been in existence since the beginning... Our club is not for everyone.. but everyone seems to want in...
Just part of a group of potential new members going through the two hour mandatory orientation held once a week every Sunday.
Just some of the facilities
skeet
Trap
skeet and trap range house
Table trap
small Bore
Picnic Pavilion and five stand range
five shot groups. 50 yards small bore rifle
sighting in at 50 yards.. one shot each bull
.. I'm not defending the motives, its just what is expected, and discipline a strict rules keeps me safe. No one wants to break the rules at our club because they wont get a second chance to come back... when you have 5,000 members, you have to keep things tight... we don't allow guest during hunting season, because too many one day hunters want to blow off two boxes of shells, in 30 minutes or less.. just to hear the bang and pretend to be a hunter. we do allow guest at any other time, but even that is very regulated... sponsor and guest have to sign in on the same range and the sponsor is fully responsible for the guest. cost is ten dollars for one day, one guest, at any range. The culture of our club has been in existence since the beginning... Our club is not for everyone.. but everyone seems to want in...
Just part of a group of potential new members going through the two hour mandatory orientation held once a week every Sunday.
Just some of the facilities
skeet
Trap
skeet and trap range house
Table trap
small Bore
Picnic Pavilion and five stand range
five shot groups. 50 yards small bore rifle
sighting in at 50 yards.. one shot each bull
Evil-Twin
member
just a few more
Air conditioned club house big screen TV.. office , supplies, ammo, bathrooms,
vending machines and kitchen
Air conditioned club house big screen TV.. office , supplies, ammo, bathrooms,
vending machines and kitchen
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