How effective is the 45 ACP Ball round for self-defense?

[Old Dog]

And, if you bought into all the war story BS and think one round is all its going to take to stop the show, and stop right then to marvel, instead of carrying on shooting as you should be, I think youre likely going to be surprised and disappointed.

As one who actually grew up in an era in which the preponderance of adult males were WW II or Korean War veterans, I can honestly state that I never heard the "war story BS" about the 1911 and .45 ball. And I was a firearms enthusiast starting around age eight, trust me, I asked lots of questions and was privy to many, many war stories over the years. Perhaps the men in my family, and their social circles were just a little more honest, who knows?

A cousin returning from Viet Nam in 1968 did tell me that if you had to use your pistol, you were already in deep kimchi, but implied he'd witnessed positive results. I personally never witnessed anyone using a .45 against another human during my conflicts, but did see the M9 brought out a time or two...

Anyway, the OP's question was how effective .45 ball was for self-defense, not would we rather carry 9mm JHPs.

 

[WisBorn]

In the days when the 1911 pistol and consequently the 230 gr 45 ACP we still had an equestrian cavalry. JM Browning developed the 45 ACP ball to shoot through a horse.

I thought that it was the 45 colt that was designed to shoot through a horse???

 

[CapnMac]

"[A]t a disadvantage?" Dunno. There's a juggle of things to consider.
Virtually all the 45acp pistols will feed FMJ ammo without a hiccup, which may be a thing.
The extra mass of a 230gr ball is not necessarily anything to sneeze at.
The subsonic MV of FMJ can improve the recoil performance and "feel" when shooting.

Those things might matter. How much is going to vary from individual. Like as not, you have to find your own "goldilocks" and run with it.

Plenty of JHP 185gr ±1000fps MV option out there, too.
A number of those will feed as reliably as FMJ in any number of pistols. Whether or not that's your pistol, will want running several boxes of the selected ammo through that specific pistol. (Not that you would not need to run as many boxes of FMJ to have the same confidence.)

Forty years' ago, the "bees' knees" was the CCI Blazer Lawman 200gr "flying ashtray" JHP. That stumpy bit of work was notorious for sending 45acp pistols to gun plumbers (repeatedly) to get that short ogive round to feed reliably. There's a strong likelihood that the 200gr spawned much of the lore of how a 1911 "will not feed JHP" out there. Pistols vary, I've had a number of 1911 that just did not "like" the truncated cone shape Federal is enamored of in both JHP and FMJ (my very, very old Officer's Model has never blinked at HydraShoks, though.

 

[md7]

I’d be ok using 230 gr ball, if that’s what I had. Of course, spare mags are helpful and that’s regardless of ammo type.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Know what all those veterans DIDN'T do a whole lotta shooting with during WWII?

The 1911.

Relatively speaking, a pistol sidearm only accounts for a tiny fraction of military combat. And of that tiny fraction, only a small portion of engagements resulted in enemy kills. Granted, sidearms are far more useful in certain, very limited, circumstances (such as clearing tunnels, for example), but again, this only accounts for a small fraction of engagements.

A LOT of ammunition gets expended in combat. And a huge fraction of those spent munitions never come into contact with the enemy...and of those that do, only a small amount result in actual kills, with the rest anywhere from no injuries (like when deflected or stopped by armor) to non-life threatening injuries.

What the military wants in combat with respect to the ammunition used is primarily "lots of it" and "reliability". Ball ammo fits both admirably.

In WWII, the initial combat load carried in the M1923 Cartridge Belt amounted to 10 pockets of ammunition, each with 1 en bloc clip of 8 rounds (80 rounds) for the M1 rifle or 2 stripper clips with 5 rounds (100 rounds total) for the M1903 rifle. 80 rounds for the M1 Garand. Whatever was in the rifle itself would bump that up a bit.

More ammo was usually carried in cloth bandoliers (48 and 60 rounds, respectively in the order discussed above). More bandoliers, more ammo.

And that's the individual, not counting ammo bearers and ammo squads.


Know who typically were issued the M1911? Mostly paratroopers.

Know what ammo was NOT carried much of? Pistol ammo.

Here's an excerpt from an October 23, 1943 Marine Corps document "Report on Infantry Weapons in Combat", which gave a brief synopsis of the various arms used by a Marine Raider Battalion on New Georgia Island:

"U.S. Pistol, Ca. .45, M1911-M1911A1. Held up very well, but used very little."

Don't get me wrong...the 1911 is an excellent pistol and I've owned one myself as my primary carry for over three decades. But people have elevated this pistol, and the .45 acp, into near mythic proportions over the decades.

 

[trackskippy]

Well my Dad who landed on Utah and fought till 45 would disagree with you...carry on...

No offense to your dad, but from what Ive seen and heard growing up in a fairly broad and long lived military family (I grew up with and learned from, WWII, Korea, and multiple tour VN combat vets, and we've had relatives on both sides of every major conflict since the revolution, and a few you may have never heard of), many of whom made their life long careers in the military. All I heard growing up were "war stories", and as a kid, all I needed to do was watch the look on my dad's and "uncles" faces when some were being told, to know to get out the bag of salt, put on my boots and get a shovel.

One of my all time favorites was "We drilled the noses of 45acp's out and put 22 blanks in the holes for "explosive" ammo in our M3's." And that one wasnt really all that crazy compared to some of the others.

On a more serious and realistic note, "story wise", we were always told that if someone is close, you shoot them quickly, and dont stop until they are down, and then shoot them some more. And that was back in the 60's, before all cool schools, modern techniques, and fancy bullets were around. Havent seen anything to counter that advice yet either.

How do we define "effective"?

Thats just it, you really cant. Every instance is its own critter, and there are just too many variables.

All you can really hope for is, that the other guy grew up believing what they saw in the TV shows and movies they watched, and just falls over dead from fright, because thats what they've been conditioned to do.

Otherwise, its the same drill, no matter what gun and/or fancy bullets youre using.... you "shoot them to the ground".

 

[WisBorn]

If I understand the OP's question.

If I had a pistol like a Taurus 1911 (sold mine off years ago) or an RIA that recommends to only use target 230 grain FMJ'S, would it be a good choice? I would say yes, if it was what I owned for defense.

With other firearm options available for defense against 2 legged threats, I'll use a hollow point.

With wilderness carry I may go with a FMJ for penetration or a hardcast bullet. But it is only because of other threats in addition to 2 legged ones....

Truth of the matter is, there are thousands of gun owners who protect themselves with FMJ'S in their handguns! Not my first choice, but they work.

 

[.38 Special]

In my youth I shot a variety of small game and pests with various RN bullets, and they were almost always shockingly ineffective. Large caliber and small, entry and exit wounds were normally tiny, and often muscle and skin would shift so that bleeding was minimal. I've seen very small critters run off with .44 and .45 bullet holes in them. (I have not used a .50 RN on living animals, but Hamilton Bowen wrote of hitting a "beer can sized" rodent with one and having to perform a "dogged foot chase" before being able to finish it off - and by that point in my experience, I was not surprised by the report.)

Of course, sometimes RNs worked. I am sure that sometimes .45 ACP ball works on people. I just wouldn't stake my life on it, had I any real choice.

 

[Roverguy]

If 230 grs ball isn’t going to work, then neither is [fill in name of preferred 9mm ammo]. Advances in bullet technology and performance have been touted as “making 9mm as effective as 45 cal”, usually ignoring that the same improved bullet technology will have substantially improved 45 ACP performance.

As to JMB having designed the 45 ACP “to shoot through a horse”, that’s probably not true, although it has a basis in truth. The 45 ACP was designed to match performance of the 45 Government, the Frankford Arsenal designed and produced cartridge for use in the Army’s SAA and S&W revolvers to solve the logistical issues of the 45 Colt cartridge not being able to chamber in the Schofield (also incorrectly named the 45 Short Colt). Designed in the 1870s during the campaigns against the Plains Indians, it was designed with a view to be capable of causing serious injury to horses, and for JMB’s purposes, to Filipino insurgents, as the solicitation for a new sidearm was based on the 38 Colt’s perceived lack of performance against tribesmen in the Philippines.

 

[Terry G]

The .45 Ball ammunition used in the 1911 was certainly effective more so when it was carried in a Thompson or M3 sub-machine gun. I carried a 1911A1 for about five months in 1970 and never shot it in combat. Why would I when I had a brand new M16A1? The truth is, as has been stated here, is that a pistol would be carried a lot but rarely used. If it comes to face to face use you would probably be squeezing that trigger for all your worth so multiple hits are going to put the target down. I'll just say with ball ammunition I would rather carry a .45 than a 9MM. With today's ammunition I think you can carry either one with confidence. You'll note my Avatar, top .45, bottom 9 MM. I'm happy with either one.

 

[Lo-Profile]

Yep ball ammo sucks.
You can line 4 people up in a row and kill them all because it over penetrates so badly.

That's why we take hollow points and stuff the hollow part full of plastic .... you know, so it doesn't under penetrate.

Trying to get shooters to agree on anything is like trying to herd cats. Most can't agree what time it is without as arguing

 

[.45Coltguy]

Ohh weee! Some mighty different opinions on this. If you like the .45 auto[and I do], use it with LRN[and I do], then you're good.
I don't own a 9mm, so, my opinion on that is zilch.
But, " a 9mm may expand, but, a .45 will never shrink."

 

[film495]

SJFP, semi jacketed flat point, is kind of between FMJ or hard cast in terms of penetration, and a hollow point. the jacket holds the bulk, core of it together to penetrate, but the soft flat lead point is flat, but will deform and flatten and expand a bit, but not as much as a hollow point. I'm no expert, but I'd imagine just a regular lead round nose is going to deform or expand more than ball ammo, but on targets can't see why it would not do more damage than FMJ. probably not commonly mentioned or marketed as it is not expensive, but probably also something to look into. Again, I'm no expert, but I think a bullet that will deform does different damage to bone than a FMJ or hard cast lead, the soft lead deflects a bit, and you kind of shatter bones instead of just poking a hole through them like an ice pick. granted a .45" hole is bad, but again - I have no real scientific research to reference on this, just some articles I read. probably going to carry SJFP in .38 special, so I don't have to rotate ammo, and I can carry around town or in the woods, and it will work fine in both roles. I want the potential for deeper penetration with the idea that I might run into a bear or large animal in the woods - and in that cartridge I think I want it to go deeper than a jacketed hollow point would do, and I don't want to get into loading and unloading different ammo based on my activity - so, I see that as an all arounder so to speak. Seems the discussion on carry generally is FMJ vs. hollow points, but there are a bunch of different types of projectiles, the SJFP peaked my interest recents.

 

[Old Dog]

One of my all time favorites was "We drilled the noses of 45acp's out and put 22 blanks in the holes for "explosive" ammo in our M3's." And that one wasnt really all that crazy compared to some of the others.

I'd never heard that one. Seems as though most of the crap like this that got spouted was by guys who'd never really been in the $h*t. But none of the men in my family hung around those kind of BSers. Although I've heard stuff like that in the bar down at the Legion hall after some have a few drinks in them. The one member of my immediate family who saw sustained combat (wounded twice), some horrific battles -- never talked about the guns or the killing. He was quiet and self-deprecating, the only stories he ever told were the funny ones...

And when I came up in the military on the 1911, none of the instructors and trainers indulged in any hyperbole about the .45 ACP FMJ, it was all low-key and factual. I feel deprived, never exposed to all the great myths.

Seen the .45 ACP ball be very effective on bowling pins, though.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have one anecdote. A friend had occasion to shoot an assailant. A double tap with hardball was immediately effective. Those bad old FMJs did not exit.

 

[tarosean]

In the days when the 1911 pistol and consequently the 230 gr 45 ACP we still had an equestrian cavalry.

Still was issued in the tanks and planes era up until 37yrs ago.

 

[Slamfire]

Guy at work, his son joined one of those special forces outfits. Son was shooting in the order of tens of thousands of rounds a week in pistols and rifles. Son deployed to Africa to kill members of the Lord Resistance Army. Bud said the nickname was "Kony" for the leader of LRA.

Kony's were wonderful people. They apparently thought it great fun to chop the lower legs of little children and watch them cry as they crawled.

The last throes of Uganda's Lord's Resistance Army – DW – 01/24/2022

After being driven out of Uganda, the Lord's Resistance Army ran riot in the Central African Republic, where it behaved more like a criminal gang than a terrorist militia. Now the LRA's days seem to be numbered.

www.dw.com

Son ended up preferring an all steel 1911 in 45 ACP. He found that hitting an unresponsive Kony across the head with a poly pistol tended to break the frame. He also preferred 45 ACP as he could shoot the Kony in the shoulder, the round would get the Kony spinning, and as the Kony fell, place a bullet in his head.

The 45ACP was a more satisfactory round for killing Kony’s than a 9mm. Can’t argue with success.

It turns out we have military men all over the place, involved in fights that you don't hear about unless our guys get slaughtered in mass. Then it hits the newspapers. I have pulled targets with Special Forces types, and had a USMC Captain our rifle team at Camp Perry. These individuals all mentioned deployments, the USMC as a sniper, that they “could not talk about.”

 

[Littlef]

An amusing observation: I have a Texas Star steel target. When I shoot 9mm, the plates knock off, and they fall a few inches back from where they fell. When I shoot my 1911 with 230 grain roundball, the plates are knocked about two to three foot back, laying on the berm behind the target. There's a lot of energy in a 230 grain 45acp.

 

[HB]

Son ended up preferring an all steel 1911 in 45 ACP. He found that hitting an unresponsive Kony across the head with a poly pistol tended to break the frame. He also preferred 45 ACP as he could shoot the Kony in the shoulder, the round would get the Kony spinning, and as the Kony fell, place a bullet in his head.

He broke multiple Glocks on people’s heads? And was so good with a pistol he could shoot the wings off a bat and hit it again before it hit the ground?!

I have very limited experience with .45 ball but have been underwhelmed with LRN and FMJ in handguns and even match style rifle bullets on game.

If your .45 can feed hollow points, I’d think using them would be preferred. I know out of an inline muzzle loader, a .45 cal pistol bullet is a great performer out to 120 yards. Not sure what velocity would be at impact but they will shoot through a deer handily.

 

[Outlaw75]

As to JMB having designed the 45 ACP “to shoot through a horse”, that’s probably not true, although it has a basis in truth. The 45 ACP was designed to match performance of the 45 Government, the Frankford Arsenal designed and produced cartridge for use in the Army’s SAA and S&W revolvers to solve the logistical issues of the 45 Colt cartridge not being able to chamber in the Schofield (also incorrectly named the 45 Short Colt). Designed in the 1870s during the campaigns against the Plains Indians, it was designed with a view to be capable of causing serious injury to horses, and for JMB’s purposes, to Filipino insurgents, as the solicitation for a new sidearm was based on the 38 Colt’s perceived lack of performance against tribesmen in the Philippines.

.45 ACP was designed by John M Browning because that's what the Ordnance Bureau specified they wanted. This was all based on the Thompson-Legarde Tests done after the Army figured out that the .38 Long Colt wasn't cutting it. They shot a couple of horses, but they also shot cattle and cadavers too.

Thompson–LaGarde Tests - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Russ57]

Given what is at stake. Given what ammo costs. I would chose to spend what it takes to make the gun reliable (or get a different gun).

By the time you shoot the required "break-in" amount, sample a few boxes of leading defensive ammo, decide on one and shoot enough of it to call it reliable.....good chance you have exceeded the purchase price of many commonly chosen defensive/CCW handguns. At that point, what is the cost of a new barrel if that is what it takes to make it reliable?

FWIW most 1911's will shoot gold dot without an issue.

 

[481]

How do we define "effective"?
The bullet(s) stopped the threat.? That sounds "effective" but something is missing, how quickly.
We can all probably agree that bigger holes are more likely to stop threats quicker than smaller holes, same shot placement is assumed.
The bullet(s) stopped the threat(s) in 10 seconds versus 15 seconds; hypothetical difference but not unrealistic.
May or may not be a big difference depending on whether threat(s) were still trying to kill you for 5 more seconds.
I'd take a good 9mm or 40 HP over 45 FMJ for SD against human attackers.
.69 - .80 holes versus one that is only .45
View attachment 1173049

Shot placement? Yea. Okay, we all shoot like John Wick in practice and expect to in self defense.
What variables can we pick in advance? Caliber, bullet type, capacity.
What variable is to be determined? Shot placement.
Sometimes someone who compromises the variables under their control choose to focus on (post about) the one variable that is not.
Example, one could carry better than a pocket gun with FMJ but is unwilling to "dress around" a larger gun; they compromised caliber, bullet type and capacity ... "shot placement"

I'm glad you posted that as it provides for another perspective.

Using the expected time to incapacitation metric, T[I/H] , derived from the US Army BRL's provisional personnel incapacitation model (c.1968), these three examples—



—produce respective expected times of incapacitation of 14.1 seconds, 12.3 seconds, and 13.0 seconds.

As for .45ACP (M1911) and 9mm (M882) ball, respective expected times of incapacitation are 17.3 seconds and 17.2 seconds, making it effectively a ''tie''..

The ''new'' 9mm M1152 (a 9mm NATO cartridge that launches a 115-grain FMJFN bullet from a 4.7"-barreled P320-M17 at 1,326 fps) produces a T[I/H] of 15.4 seconds which appears to satisfy the US Army's RFP requirement for a cartridge that produces “increased lethality” relative to the existing platform without changing the chambering or increasing barrel length. Clearly, the M1152 surpasses the T[I/H] of both the ''old'' .45ACP (M1911) and 9mm (M882) loads.

Expanding bullets (that is, JHPs) in respective calibers offer superior T[I/H]s to their FMJ counterparts.

 

[S.Crockett]

A .45acp 230grn FMJ has its place. I’ve certainly shot a ton of that ammo over the decades.

Still, it’s got nothing on a 10mm 200grn JHP (that’s as in real 10mm ammo) due to the better sectional density.

 

[Jim Watson]

This was all based on the Thompson-Legarde Tests done after the Army figured out that the .38 Long Colt wasn't cutting it

More like after the Army decided they wanted to go back to the .45, so they arranged tests to favor it.

 

[defjon]

Quite.

(I actually like plain ol 45 fmj ball in something like the sw governor. Tumbles and goes about 18 inches, pretty much ideal)