ksnecktieman
Member
In one of the articles on mouse guns, one comment was a need to defend at 20 yards? How far away would you dare to shoot, and claim in court you were in a life threatening situation?
How far is defensive?
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at any distance where I felt my life was in jeopardy....if a BG comes swinging a bat at me yelling "I'll kill you you big mofo", I would take the shot as soon as he was in range (depending the gun I am carrying at the time)
If the attack has already started (remember the Whattaburger thread) I would shoot at any range even before the BG has a chance of just looking at me!!
But that is just me
If the attack has already started (remember the Whattaburger thread) I would shoot at any range even before the BG has a chance of just looking at me!!
But that is just me
Matthew Temkin
Member
He'd have to be right on top of me.
No more than a few feet.
20 yards?
Heck, most police shootings happen within 7 feet.
20 yards is when you take cover and dial 911
No more than a few feet.
20 yards?
Heck, most police shootings happen within 7 feet.
20 yards is when you take cover and dial 911
clubsoda22
member
depends, if there is no cover and the guy has a gun....then again, why would he draw the gun way back there?
As far as the baseball bat scenario, maybe draw, but i wouldn't shoot until about 7 yards. Give him some time to stare down my barrel and reconsider.
As far as the baseball bat scenario, maybe draw, but i wouldn't shoot until about 7 yards. Give him some time to stare down my barrel and reconsider.
Snake Eyes
Member
25 Feet.
Because the Tueler (sp?) drill shows that a man with a knife can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds or less.
I would probably take evasive action first.
Then yell Stop! I have a GUN!
After that, because I'm slow, and in fear for my life, I would shoot to stop.
Of course, hypothesis is great until the poop hits the fan. Then I'll probably do what ever I can manage, with whatever training sticks with me, and hope & pray I get out of it with the least amount of damage to any living being that lets me or my loved ones persevere with our lives.
Then I'll go to the shrink.
Because the Tueler (sp?) drill shows that a man with a knife can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds or less.
I would probably take evasive action first.
Then yell Stop! I have a GUN!
After that, because I'm slow, and in fear for my life, I would shoot to stop.
Of course, hypothesis is great until the poop hits the fan. Then I'll probably do what ever I can manage, with whatever training sticks with me, and hope & pray I get out of it with the least amount of damage to any living being that lets me or my loved ones persevere with our lives.
Then I'll go to the shrink.
What's he armed with? Does he have an impact weapon, a slicer, or a projectile-thrower?
Where is my exit/escape? Can I run out the back door? Drive away? Hide until or unless he comes closer? Am I pinned down right here and unable to go anywhere at all?
Do I have other people I must defend, such as a small child or an older adult who is unable to run away?
pax
You must be able to articulate how your life was in danger at the moment you pulled the trigger. -- Marty Hayes
clubsoda22
member
what pax said.
ksnecktieman
Member
Pax? The point of the 20 yard comment was someone that does not like mouse guns because of lack of range. What I am curious about is worst case scenario, and how far away you might justify to yourself morally, and later justify yourself to a jury, so lets try a specific situation.
You are the only adult in the house, you have two children playing in a bedroom (real children, under five years old). You have been cleaning carpets, and have furniture shoved up against the back door, no other escape route. An old pickup with two guys stops on the street, and two guys get out, one has a crowbar, one has a shotgun (carried at port arms, right hand on pistol grip, left hand on forearm), and they walk toward your house. They ignore all verbal challenges/warnings you give them and continue to advance.
In your mind worst case includes, the kids running from the playroom, to you, or maybe past you into the yard? Another kid due home right now on a bicycle?
MY POSITION, I am a 54 year old man, and I would not consider physical combat with two men under any circumstances. I do not think I could morally justify shooting in this situation, until they were within two steps of me if they continue to advance at a walk. They will be advancing into the muzzle of a gun. I realize the intimidation factor of 870/ 1911/ mouse gun, but if they are NOT intimidated at what range would the law accept a claim of self defense.
You are the only adult in the house, you have two children playing in a bedroom (real children, under five years old). You have been cleaning carpets, and have furniture shoved up against the back door, no other escape route. An old pickup with two guys stops on the street, and two guys get out, one has a crowbar, one has a shotgun (carried at port arms, right hand on pistol grip, left hand on forearm), and they walk toward your house. They ignore all verbal challenges/warnings you give them and continue to advance.
In your mind worst case includes, the kids running from the playroom, to you, or maybe past you into the yard? Another kid due home right now on a bicycle?
MY POSITION, I am a 54 year old man, and I would not consider physical combat with two men under any circumstances. I do not think I could morally justify shooting in this situation, until they were within two steps of me if they continue to advance at a walk. They will be advancing into the muzzle of a gun. I realize the intimidation factor of 870/ 1911/ mouse gun, but if they are NOT intimidated at what range would the law accept a claim of self defense.
You don't know period. On statistics of "average" gunfights, maybe three yards in is a good estimate and should be trained for. But on statistics what did Mark Twain say? "If you have one foot in a bucket of scalding water and one foot in a bucket of ice water on average you should be comfortable.
You are in the mall letting your wife and 2.5 kids shop. It is a quiet Saturday. You let the wife and 1.2 of the kids go into the lingerie store while you and the other 1.3 check out gun magazines in B. Dalton. You are walking through the concourse to go meet your better half. 50 yards ahead you see wife and 1.2 exit the undie store and begin to cross the common area to the pretzel stand. Immediately after a side maintenance door opens 80 yard ahead of you and two young males(trenchcoat types/disgruntled postal-workers/islamic converts, you pick) enter the concourse. The are armed with semi-auto mag fed rifles and begin shooting the closest targets of opportunity while moving in your direction and thus the direction of your wife and 1.2. What to do?
Close range is most probable. Any range is possible. Know your abilities at all of them. You can neither schedule or script your next encounter.
You are in the mall letting your wife and 2.5 kids shop. It is a quiet Saturday. You let the wife and 1.2 of the kids go into the lingerie store while you and the other 1.3 check out gun magazines in B. Dalton. You are walking through the concourse to go meet your better half. 50 yards ahead you see wife and 1.2 exit the undie store and begin to cross the common area to the pretzel stand. Immediately after a side maintenance door opens 80 yard ahead of you and two young males(trenchcoat types/disgruntled postal-workers/islamic converts, you pick) enter the concourse. The are armed with semi-auto mag fed rifles and begin shooting the closest targets of opportunity while moving in your direction and thus the direction of your wife and 1.2. What to do?
Close range is most probable. Any range is possible. Know your abilities at all of them. You can neither schedule or script your next encounter.
ksnecktieman,
All those questions were a fancy way of saying, "It depends." They weren't an attempt to get a specific scenario.
I can imagine needing to shoot out to 20 yards. I can even imagine certain desperate circumstances where one might need to try it at 50 yards or more (Navy Joe gave an example of such a case).
As long as I am able to articulate how my life or the lives of innocent others are in danger at the moment I pull the trigger, and as long as there is no other way to deal with the imminent deadly danger, then shooting at a distance should not be a legal problem. Depending on my shooting ability and gear, though, it might very well be an unsolvable tactical problem.
The legal difficulty with long shots is that distance usually equals time, and time generally equals other options. Which was why I ran down those questions. If the answers to all the questions I asked above lead to the conclusion that it's a worst-case scenario and there are no other options but to kill or be killed, then it shouldn't be a legal problem either.
Generally speaking, the three elements of ability, opportunity, and jeopardy must all be present in a case of justifiable homicide (self defense).
In your scenario, ability and opportunity are present from the moment the men get out of the pickup truck. The man with the crowbar and the man with the shotgun both have the unequivocal ability to kill you because they are armed.
The man with the shotgun has the opportunity to kill you as soon as he is within shooting distance if there are no bullet-proof structures between you. The one with the crowbar possesses opportunity as soon as he is within ~25 feet of you, because an assailant at that distance can generally cover the remaining distance and strike a killing blow before an armed defender can draw and fire.
From your description of hypothetical events, I do not believe that jeopardy is present at the beginning of the scenario. Jeopardy is generally not present unless or until the men do something overt to show that it is -- making verbal threats, for instance, or breaking down your front door. Drawing down on them before jeopardy is unequivocally present is probably a bad idea, no matter what the distance is. In your scenario, the men have done nothing overt but advance toward your front door, so you would have a hard time articulating in court why you felt they were a deadly threat.
However, changing your scenario a little bit so that jeopardy is present: the men step out of their truck and one of them yells, "We gonna kill you, mofo...!" The three elements of ability, opportunity, and jeopardy are present at that moment so you could shoot at that moment.
However, even with all three elements present, if you can still retreat without leaving innocent others at risk, you generally have a duty to do so. Where are your children? Are they behind you in the house? If so, retreat: Shut and lock the door, grab the kids, and get to your safe room. Lock that door behind you too and call 911. If the kids aren't behind you, but are playing in the yard, you cannot retreat without leaving innocent others (the kids) in danger, so you may shoot to defend yourself and them.
Again, the important question in court won't be the distance between you and the BG. The important questions will whether the elements of a justified shooting were present, and whether you had any other options.
pax
You have the right to remain helpless. Should you choose to waive this right, anything you do may be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an assailant. If you cannot find one for yourself, the court will release one for you. -- Steve Munden, quoted by Jeff Cooper in his commentaries
All those questions were a fancy way of saying, "It depends." They weren't an attempt to get a specific scenario.
I can imagine needing to shoot out to 20 yards. I can even imagine certain desperate circumstances where one might need to try it at 50 yards or more (Navy Joe gave an example of such a case).
As long as I am able to articulate how my life or the lives of innocent others are in danger at the moment I pull the trigger, and as long as there is no other way to deal with the imminent deadly danger, then shooting at a distance should not be a legal problem. Depending on my shooting ability and gear, though, it might very well be an unsolvable tactical problem.
The legal difficulty with long shots is that distance usually equals time, and time generally equals other options. Which was why I ran down those questions. If the answers to all the questions I asked above lead to the conclusion that it's a worst-case scenario and there are no other options but to kill or be killed, then it shouldn't be a legal problem either.
Generally speaking, the three elements of ability, opportunity, and jeopardy must all be present in a case of justifiable homicide (self defense).
In your scenario, ability and opportunity are present from the moment the men get out of the pickup truck. The man with the crowbar and the man with the shotgun both have the unequivocal ability to kill you because they are armed.
The man with the shotgun has the opportunity to kill you as soon as he is within shooting distance if there are no bullet-proof structures between you. The one with the crowbar possesses opportunity as soon as he is within ~25 feet of you, because an assailant at that distance can generally cover the remaining distance and strike a killing blow before an armed defender can draw and fire.
From your description of hypothetical events, I do not believe that jeopardy is present at the beginning of the scenario. Jeopardy is generally not present unless or until the men do something overt to show that it is -- making verbal threats, for instance, or breaking down your front door. Drawing down on them before jeopardy is unequivocally present is probably a bad idea, no matter what the distance is. In your scenario, the men have done nothing overt but advance toward your front door, so you would have a hard time articulating in court why you felt they were a deadly threat.
However, changing your scenario a little bit so that jeopardy is present: the men step out of their truck and one of them yells, "We gonna kill you, mofo...!" The three elements of ability, opportunity, and jeopardy are present at that moment so you could shoot at that moment.
However, even with all three elements present, if you can still retreat without leaving innocent others at risk, you generally have a duty to do so. Where are your children? Are they behind you in the house? If so, retreat: Shut and lock the door, grab the kids, and get to your safe room. Lock that door behind you too and call 911. If the kids aren't behind you, but are playing in the yard, you cannot retreat without leaving innocent others (the kids) in danger, so you may shoot to defend yourself and them.
Again, the important question in court won't be the distance between you and the BG. The important questions will whether the elements of a justified shooting were present, and whether you had any other options.
pax
You have the right to remain helpless. Should you choose to waive this right, anything you do may be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an assailant. If you cannot find one for yourself, the court will release one for you. -- Steve Munden, quoted by Jeff Cooper in his commentaries
Shootin' Buddy
Member
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A distant scenario
You've spent the morning hunting at your favorite hunting grounds, the same place you have success every year. But this morning, it's been unusually quiet and you haven't gotten anything. As you crest the hill returning to camp, you expect to see your wife and kid waiting with breakfast for you.
Instead, you see another vehicle parked at your campsite, one you recognize easily as belonging to your wife's psycho-ex. His presence is in violation of the restraining order against him because of his repeated violent threats against your wife and family. Your wife is crawling away from him. She appears to be bloody and badly injured. He is reaching into the window of his car and pulling a pistol from the glove box.
You are 100 yards away. Your mouse gun (which you carry for bear ) seems a little inadequate at this moment. Aren't you glad your backup gun is a 300 Win Mag?
Is there any question whether this distant shot is morally and legally acceptable?
Don
You've spent the morning hunting at your favorite hunting grounds, the same place you have success every year. But this morning, it's been unusually quiet and you haven't gotten anything. As you crest the hill returning to camp, you expect to see your wife and kid waiting with breakfast for you.
Instead, you see another vehicle parked at your campsite, one you recognize easily as belonging to your wife's psycho-ex. His presence is in violation of the restraining order against him because of his repeated violent threats against your wife and family. Your wife is crawling away from him. She appears to be bloody and badly injured. He is reaching into the window of his car and pulling a pistol from the glove box.
You are 100 yards away. Your mouse gun (which you carry for bear
) seems a little inadequate at this moment. Aren't you glad your backup gun is a 300 Win Mag? Is there any question whether this distant shot is morally and legally acceptable?
Don
clubsoda22
member
i don't find a COM hit at 20 yards with my bersa particularly difficult. I assume by mouse guns you mean even smaller .380's like the kel tec, which i have no practical experiance with.
fix
Member
As soon as the attacker appears larger than my front sight!
Kidding of course. Not a real hard and fast rule on this one I'm afraid.
Kidding of course. Not a real hard and fast rule on this one I'm afraid.
Sleuth
Member
How far?
That point where I percieve an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm to myself or others.
Just be able to articulate it.
That point where I percieve an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm to myself or others.
Just be able to articulate it.
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Vern Humphrey
Member
I recommend everyone do the Tueller Drill, and have it documented.
In the Tueller Drill, the class is divided into teams of three, a recorder, an attacker (with a rubber knife), and a defender (with a rubber or toy gun.)
The attacker and defender stand 21 feet apart. AT THE ATTACKER'S OPTION, he charges and stabs the defender. The recorder starts the watch WHEN he sees the attacker move. The defender tries to get off a shot.
Pertinent information is recorded -- time to stab the defender, age, weight, sex, etc of participants, and the defender's estimate of his ability to get off an accurate shot.
Then eveyone change places. This way a database is quickly built up. And you find:
1. The attack takes about 1.5 second, plus or minus 0.1 seconds.
2. The attacker wins almost all the time.
3. Age, weight and sex don't matter.
Now factor in the liklihood of actually STOPPING a charging attacker, even if you center-punch him, and the fact that knife wounds are more likely to be fatal than gunshots.
If you're ever on the stand after a shooting, you want to be able to tell people WHY you thought a man with a knife was so dangerous.
In the Tueller Drill, the class is divided into teams of three, a recorder, an attacker (with a rubber knife), and a defender (with a rubber or toy gun.)
The attacker and defender stand 21 feet apart. AT THE ATTACKER'S OPTION, he charges and stabs the defender. The recorder starts the watch WHEN he sees the attacker move. The defender tries to get off a shot.
Pertinent information is recorded -- time to stab the defender, age, weight, sex, etc of participants, and the defender's estimate of his ability to get off an accurate shot.
Then eveyone change places. This way a database is quickly built up. And you find:
1. The attack takes about 1.5 second, plus or minus 0.1 seconds.
2. The attacker wins almost all the time.
3. Age, weight and sex don't matter.
Now factor in the liklihood of actually STOPPING a charging attacker, even if you center-punch him, and the fact that knife wounds are more likely to be fatal than gunshots.
If you're ever on the stand after a shooting, you want to be able to tell people WHY you thought a man with a knife was so dangerous.
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
Retreat is an iffy option because houses are flammable. Anyone who showed hostile intent can burn you out and so should be shot before he has a chance to do so...retreating into a structure known to be pervious to bullets AND flammable isn't wise.
TamThompson
Member
Loved ones hostage situation
To answer the original question, about the only situation I could see needing good aim at 20, 25 yards are more would be if BG has ahold of your spouse or kid and is dragging them into a car that already has a driver in it. Then you'd need very good aim to hit BG and not the hostage, or to shoot out the tires without hitting the gas tank.
To answer the original question, about the only situation I could see needing good aim at 20, 25 yards are more would be if BG has ahold of your spouse or kid and is dragging them into a car that already has a driver in it. Then you'd need very good aim to hit BG and not the hostage, or to shoot out the tires without hitting the gas tank.
sanchezero
Member
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A better way to try this, if you can, is using an airsoft rig that duplicates your carry system. It'll cost you about $100 or so, but it's well worth it.
FWIW, I've done the tueller drill so much (with lots of different people) I'm about sick to death of it. I never been tagged without having put 3-8 rounds on the guy first. Thats if we do it with me standing still. If I'm allowed to move, I can empty my whole 30-40 rnd mag (plastic pellets, they sting too
) without even getting touched, depending on the attacker.It's not just me. Most of the guys I've tried it with have similar results. I have gotten tons of welts as an attacker, too.
I find that 12-15 feet is where things get really hairy. I don't know that I'd even go for the gun at that range. Hard call.
Anyway, it's all kindofa moot point, since, as was mentioned by Vern, odds are pretty good that even after plowing your attacker with a coupla ounces of lead he's still gonna get to ya and you'll have to beat him off. Hopefully, you'll have taken some of his motivation by then.
As for 'long' range shots...Gabe Suarez's book, The Tactical Pistol mentions that old standby statistic of 75% of gunfights happen within 3yds blah blah blah. He goes on, however, to report that appx 15% occur at distances exceeding 10yds or so (I hope I'm remembering this correctly, my copy is loaned out. Feel free to correct this anyone). And certainly, there were longer engagements.
If you choose to carry a P32, thats fine
rolleyes: 
). Just be aware of the limitations of yourself and your hardware. Alotta people choose their gun based on comfort and are reassured by the low statistical likelyhood of needing more gun (3yards, 3 rounds, 3 seconds et al). It's ironic that as armed citizens many have decided to 'buck the numbers' of the less significant statistic (that of actually needing a firearm defensively), yet ignore the information presented by the more significant numbers.
artherd
member
Hollywood cops didn't think they'd ever have to make headshots at 60 yards with pistols either.
Anything can happen.
Defensive distance is having a longer-range weapon than the other guy, and using it when another 'reasonable person' would be in imediate fear for his life or the life of others.
That could be anywhere from 6 inches, to 5miles, depending on how well the other guy is armed.
Anything can happen.
Defensive distance is having a longer-range weapon than the other guy, and using it when another 'reasonable person' would be in imediate fear for his life or the life of others.
That could be anywhere from 6 inches, to 5miles, depending on how well the other guy is armed.
ksnecktieman
Member
,,,,,,,,,, OK,,,,,,,, I think I understand now,,,,,,,,,, If I do not have a 300 winmag for long distance challenges, and an extended magazine 870 pump for multiple attacker scenarios I am naked?
I am a 54 year old male, with nothing to make me a target, no flamboyant jewelry, no combination to the local bank vault, no multi million dollar bank account, I am not a target..?????
I am going to wear an IWB .45, and a backup .38 in a safecarry, and a .22 mag 5 shot revolver in my front pocket. I am going to have a pepper spray cannister, an asp that folds to nine inches, and since I am in a state/county/city that is not anti gun I will sling my ar 15, and carry my 870 in my hands. ??????????????? I am not going into combat,,,,,,, I will run from combat........
WAKE UP!!!!! I am MR. Average,,,,,, All I want to do is live my life, and go to sleep tonight, and wake up in the morning.
My sister does not have a gun, and never will. I think she should have, but she will not listen to me. How could she listen to me????????? I do not know what to tell her. I can NOT tell her a .22, .32. .380, .9mm, .38, .357, . 44, .45, .308, 30.06 is enough.
There will always be a situation that needs more gun, but the first rule of gunfighting is to have A gun, I plan to ALWAYS have one.
My duty is not to kill the bad guys,,,,,,, My duty is to live through today. If a bad guy shows himself, and I can remove him, that is a good thing
I am a 54 year old male, with nothing to make me a target, no flamboyant jewelry, no combination to the local bank vault, no multi million dollar bank account, I am not a target..?????
I am going to wear an IWB .45, and a backup .38 in a safecarry, and a .22 mag 5 shot revolver in my front pocket. I am going to have a pepper spray cannister, an asp that folds to nine inches, and since I am in a state/county/city that is not anti gun I will sling my ar 15, and carry my 870 in my hands. ??????????????? I am not going into combat,,,,,,, I will run from combat........
WAKE UP!!!!! I am MR. Average,,,,,, All I want to do is live my life, and go to sleep tonight, and wake up in the morning.
My sister does not have a gun, and never will. I think she should have, but she will not listen to me. How could she listen to me????????? I do not know what to tell her. I can NOT tell her a .22, .32. .380, .9mm, .38, .357, . 44, .45, .308, 30.06 is enough.
There will always be a situation that needs more gun, but the first rule of gunfighting is to have A gun, I plan to ALWAYS have one.
My duty is not to kill the bad guys,,,,,,, My duty is to live through today. If a bad guy shows himself, and I can remove him, that is a good thing
orangeninja
Member
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Usually in police academy and tactics training...50ft. with a club or a knife and sometimes a gun if you are a civilian, cover or retreat is available and the assailant has say a handgun. A rifle? Well, if you can SEE it you are in iminent danger. But 50ft. has been held up in a court of law concerning clubs and knives. 21ft. will allow maybe 1 shot at most...50ft. about 2 or 3...you don't want to wait for anything less than 21 ft. However if you are aware of a threat say within 75 ft. go ahead and draw...if they come within 50ft. depending upon the circumstances...
fix
Member
On the 21 foot drills...
Do not assume that because you managed to get shots off during the drill that you will display the same performance in real life. In the real world, there is no "ready, set, go". You have no warning, unlike the training exercises.
Do not assume that because you managed to get shots off during the drill that you will display the same performance in real life. In the real world, there is no "ready, set, go". You have no warning, unlike the training exercises.
Vern Humphrey
Member
With the Tueller Drill, there is no "ready, set, go" -- the attacker chooses his time to initiate the attack.
HOWEVER you DO know the attack is coming, so it is reasonable to assume your performance in a real attack would be less than in the drill.
HOWEVER you DO know the attack is coming, so it is reasonable to assume your performance in a real attack would be less than in the drill.
sanchezero
Member
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Fix, the tueller drill is primarily a law enforcement tool. It's name comes from a study that determined too many cops weren't giving credibility to threats armed with clubs, knives, etc.
The whole premise of the drill is that you have a known threat and that you need to determine at what point that threat becomes a danger. It's not about being ambushed; a whole different can of whoopazz.
fix
Member
I understand the nature of the drill. I'm just pointing out the false sense of security that one can get from successfully defending themselves during the drill.
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